Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[CKNovel]

Other jobs are not similar. PLD healing+mitigation is closer to GNB than WAR is to PLD.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

And sure, PLD should be toned down a bit too. In particular Divine Veil is far to strong.

This data takes overhealing in account, I believe?
As for the "performance", I meant the capability of dealing with dungeons packs without the help of healers since that was the current topic.

PLD fantasy is to have strong mitigations, heals and protection. Your remark encapsulates exactly what I criticized about the nerf mentality.
No one is allowed to step out of the lines and then we'll complain how everything is similar.

[CKNovel]

You can find my other posts to see if I care about dungeon balance and see how I offered solutions that would actually fix the core issue.
These stances aren't incompatible, you can have something overpowered and balanced. I know it's a shocker.

Bloodwhetting has fantastic healing capabilities but must have a high number of targets. This scenario can only be found in dungeons, maps and fates and doesn't automatically ensure the completion of these content.

Focusing on nerfing Bloodwhetting won't make them [the dungeons] more engaging

Sure, that is a true statement.

Exactly, let's focus on making dungeons engaging instead of tweaking individual abilities. Slowing down cars to handle a damaged road instead of fixing the road itself isn't the solution.
We'll think about climate change, world hunger and other hyperbolic statement outside of XIV's forums.

[Terhix]

These stances aren't incompatible, you can have something overpowered and balanced. I know it's a shocker.

If it's overpowered then by definition it is not balanced:

The terms “overpowered” (OP) and “underpowered” (UP) are used on game elements and mechanics that are too good or bad to describe a lack of game balance. (...)

Bloodwhetting has fantastic healing capabilities but must have a high number of targets. This scenario can only be found in dungeons, maps and fates and doesn't automatically ensure the completion of these content.

Bloodwhetting on single target is already twice the HPS (shield included) of Heart of Corundum or Holy Sheltron, and Warrior as a whole is the highest HPS tank in game on single target. Bloodwhetting absolutely does not need the multitarget component to be strong.

Exactly, let's focus on making dungeons engaging instead of tweaking individual abilities.

Why "instead of"? What is it about nerfing bloodwhetting that would prevent making dungeons more engaging or doing any other change in the game? Did Yoshi P give a keynote in which he said that any changes to Bloodwhetting will make the dev team unable to make any further changes to the game, because if so I missed it.

[Somnolence]

The majority of WAR players are happy, and this is well represented in the game.

If you to to the WAR lounge on The Balance discord and they are posting cat pics, then WAR is in a good state.

[CKNovel]

Could you read the statement right after the quote you picked out?
Broken in one specific content and in a specific situation.

Why "instead of"? What is it about nerfing bloodwhetting that would prevent making dungeons more engaging or doing any other change in the game?

You have it backward:
"How nerfing Bloodwhetting would make dungeons more engaging?"

You can absolutely nerf Bloodwhetting but would that magically make healers more engaging?
Think about it, when Warrior is not under Bloodwhetting, do you see them going low?

[Terhix]

You have it backward:
"How nerfing Bloodwhetting would make dungeons more engaging?"

Getting all tanks on somewhat level playing field absolutely does make designing engaging dungeons much more of an achievable goal. One tank being virtually indestructible in multitarget scenario severly limits the design space.

You can absolutely nerf Bloodwhetting but would that magically make healers more engaging?

When you spill milk at home do you also go "well, I could wipe it off, but will that magically buy me new milk?"

[CKNovel]

Getting all tanks on somewhat level playing field absolutely does make designing engaging dungeons much more of an achievable goal. One tank being virtually indestructible in multitarget scenario severly limits the design space.

All tanks are virtually indestructible in dungeon packs, Dark Knight requires more work but you can pull it off, Warrior simply requires less work.
If you nerf Bloodwhetting, Warrior will still be virtually unkillable and Healers will barely make use of their AoE healing kit.

When you spill milk at home do you also go "well, I could wipe it off, but will that magically buy me new milk?"

Obviously no, because those are two distinct problems: The mess you need to clean and your lack of milk.
Just like Bloodwhetting and dungeon design, wether I wipe the milk or not I will not get new milk.

Since it's your analogy, hopefully you might better understand this way?

[aiqa]

This data takes overhealing in account, I believe?

Overhealing is accounted for. That metric includes mitigation and actual healing, not overhealing.

Your remark encapsulates exactly what I criticized about the nerf mentality.
No one is allowed to step out of the lines and then we'll complain how everything is similar.

That PLD theme doesn't have to include doing strong ogcd aoe healing. The theme would be fully intact if Divine Veil was a GCD ability. If PLD (or WAR) need stronger support/sustain for their themes, something else has to give. For PLD you can at least point towards its significantly lower single target dps, but WAR is also top 2 for single target dps.

All in all PLD is not nearly as big an issue as WAR. And the one ability from PLD that is a bit problematic is even worse on the WAR version.

[Terhix]

Obviously no, because those are two distinct problems: The mess you need to clean and your lack of milk.
Just like Bloodwhetting and dungeon design, wether I wipe the milk or not I will not get new milk.

Correct! And every time someone says we should fix problem A, you swoop in and say "but it won't fix problem B!" Nobody disagrees with you about that. But for some reason you seem to be adamant that because fixing problem A does not fix problem B we should therefore not fix problem A. If A and B are disjoint problems and we not only know how to fix A, but fixing A is actually trivial, we should do that whether or not it fixes B.

[CKNovel]

All in all PLD is not nearly as big an issue as WAR. And the one ability from PLD that is a bit problematic is even worse on the WAR version.

PLD should be a bigger concern than WAR because it exactly enable no-healers runs in much more content than the WAR.

Correct! And every time someone says we should fix problem A, you swoop in and say "but it won't fix problem B!" Nobody disagrees with you about that. But for some reason you seem to be adamant that because fixing problem A does not fix problem B we should therefore not fix problem A. If A and B are disjoint problems and we not only know how to fix A, but fixing A is actually trivial, we should do that whether or not it fixes B.

You forget a lot of cases:
-Concern A is not a problem (You're about to run out of milk but will need to get new sooner)
-Concern A can't be solved (Milk expired)
-Concern A can be solved but it's unnecessary. (Milk dropped outside)

And we circle back to this:
Is Bloodwhetting overpowered in dungeons? Yes.
Is it a problem? No, because it is only overpowered against multiple targets that only targets the tank.

Also, Concern A is the parent of Concern B. Your bike has a flat tire (A), you have no vehicle to go to the park (B). Fix Concern A, you fix Concern B.
Dungeons don't deal enough damage to the party (A), Warrior's bloodwhetting is overpowered in AoE situations where adds only targets the tank (B).
That's my point, as long as you don't fix A, more Bs will swoops in.