Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Terhix]

Also, Concern A is the parent of Concern B. Your bike has a flat tire (A), you have no vehicle to go to the park (B). Fix Concern A, you fix Concern B.
Dungeons don't deal enough damage to the party (A), Warrior's bloodwhetting is overpowered in AoE situations where adds only targets the tank (B).
That's my point, as long as you don't fix A, more Bs will swoops in.

These are not equivalent scenarios as adding more party damage will not make Bloodwhetting not overpowered, nor is it the lack of party damage that makes Bloodwhetting overpowered. It's overpowered because its HPS on packs is an order of magnitude higher than any other ogcd ability of any other tank or, with enough enemies present, the entire kits of some of the other tanks.

[CKNovel]

These are not equivalent scenarios as adding more party damage will not make Bloodwhetting not overpowered, nor is it the lack of party damage that makes Bloodwhetting overpowered. It's overpowered because its HPS on packs is an order of magnitude higher than any other ogcd ability of any other tank or, with enough enemies present, the entire kits of some of the other tanks.

Indeed, Bloodwhetting will remain extremely powerful. But dungeons will be more engaging to healers.
More than 60% of the damage taken in dungeons are on the tank, during packs 99% is on the tank. Combine this with Warrior powerful self-healing and you have your problem.
That's our problem, the combination of both.

Spread the damage accross the party, you'll make Bloodwhetting less powerful and healing more engaging, all while keeping the Warrior fantasy. As a bonus, Dark Knight would greatly benefit from it.
I only need players to understand this, and I'll be satisfied.

[aiqa]

all while keeping the Warrior fantasy

I can recommend you some single player games where you can go all out on that godmode fantasy, Pathfinder WOTR has some particularly good options. But it has no place in an MMO. And appealing to maintaining "warrior fantasies" does nothing in a conversation where the other side is arguing against that the consequences of that exact fantasy. Warriors can get another fantasy.

[Alice_Rivers]

Oookay, this ai a lot of posts since last I was here...

Personally I don't see a huge problem with Divine Veil, it is only a shield and rarely outlast one raidwide. But moving away from the fixation on bloodwhetting, as we know, it's not the only insane heal WAR has. You're right that I do see WAR drop very low before and after bloodwhetting, then they benediction themselves again, rinse and repeat. It is thoroughly overpowered, if not actually broken, and yes I do maintain that in a trinity system any job that breaks that trinity is by definition broken. Further if, as we agree, dungeons serve both as casual content and a tutorial for extreme, savage and up, then it must be representative of what players will see in that content it serves as a tutorial for - it does not, will not and cannot until such time as both it and the jobs participating in it are balanced accordingly. Even WoW has recently recognised that a healthy tank/healer balance is necessary for a healthy trinity based MMO.

That said, I am more interested in fixing things, so lets return to dungeons and trials since bringing tank balance (even only in dungeons) alone will not fix dungeons. To that end, I have heard suggestions of reducing the number of mobs while giving them higher damage (including raidwide) and increasing the number of esuna and interrupt mechanics, someone else in another thread has suggested more environmental mechanics and having recently replayed City of Amdapor Hard I agree, those are cool and would be an improvement to dungeon design.

I don't see why we cannot both reduce the number of mobs in dungeons, give them more dps AND reduce the number of targets WAR can heal off at the same time. You, yourself, CKNovel have said that PLD would be the new overlong nail should WAR be clipped, PLD heals are a fixed potency per skill use - number of enemies does not factor in, GNB too as far as I can tell has it's heals independent of target count, why should WAR be the exception?

[Terhix]

I only need players to understand this, and I'll be satisfied.

That is perfectly clear and understandable. What it's not is a reason not to nerf Bloodwhetting.

[CKNovel]

I don't see why we cannot both reduce the number of mobs in dungeons, give them more dps AND reduce the number of targets WAR can heal off at the same time. You, yourself, CKNovel have said that PLD would be the new overlong nail should WAR be clipped, PLD heals are a fixed potency per skill use - number of enemies does not factor in, GNB too as far as I can tell has it's heals independent of target count, why should WAR be the exception?

Once damage redistribution is done, Warrior bloodwhetting will still have an overpowered state but it won't steal the show or matters that much.
Healer role will be more than holding a tank that can heal itself. The goal is to restore the trinity in dungeon

As long as we don't see Healers being barred from PF, there's no harm in keeping an overpowered tool. The trinity is pointless in dungeon with or without Bloodwhetting, so why not just keep it?
I'm also against the nerf mentality when a tool starts to become a strength that steps out of the line. Remember when Cover was strong? It made Paladin able to double invuln himself and an ally, but it ended up being removed.

After Bloodwhetting, what would be next?

[Maxilor]

It's been said a million times before (in this thread probably) that if one class is in a great spot but the others are suffering, the answer isn't to cut the legs off of the class that's thriving so it can crawl on the ground in misery with the rest of them.

Square needs to bring the other classes up to match the WAR and make them appealing alternatives.

If content is too easy and healers barely need to heal then make the content more difficult.

Dawntrail is already on the right track with this. They just need to bring all the other tanks up.

[Alice_Rivers]

I'm also against the nerf mentality when a tool starts to become a strength that steps out of the line. Remember when Cover was strong? It made Paladin able to double invuln himself and an ally, but it ended up being removed.

After Bloodwhetting, what would be next?

What would be next? I don't remember a time when cover and hallowed ground synergised, I do remember trying it once or twice because it seemed funny, I actually don't have a problem with it either - it makes for good tactical plays like invulning TB stacks or buying someone two free safe raises where they don't have to worry about the tank's HP.

I'm not one to go for mindless nerfing, in the same way that buffing everything to meet one OP factor leads to massive power spikes and forces commensurate damage spikes (that don't necessarily actually equate to difficulty), mindless nerfing leads to a spiral of everything being made weak and boring. There has to be moderation of both, we've agreed that the content doesn't work properly as is, in terms of job balance I believe DRK is overdue a damage buff to make up for it's comparative squish but equally in terms of it's staying power I think it's generally in the best spot. That's where I would set the tank balance personally while simultaneously improving content.

[Shurrikhan]

What would be next? I don't remember a time when cover and hallowed ground synergised, I do remember trying it once or twice because it seemed funny, I actually don't have a problem with it either - it makes for good tactical plays like invulning TB stacks or buying someone two free safe raises where they don't have to worry about the tank's HP.

Hallowed Ground stopped nullifying Covered damage only after Ultima Ex came out, iirc. Before that, I could have sworn it was customary for Paladins to HG-Cover their cotank through Freefall, resetting stacks while avoiding the need for swaps or messy repositioning. Been quite a while, though.

[Shurrikhan]

It's been said a million times before (in this thread probably) that if one class is in a great spot but the others are suffering, the answer isn't to cut the legs off of the class that's thriving so it can crawl on the ground in misery with the rest of them.

Square needs to bring the other classes up to match the WAR and make them appealing alternatives.

If content is too easy and healers barely need to heal then make the content more difficult.

Dawntrail is already on the right track with this. They just need to bring all the other tanks up.

It's been said even more often why that's a terrible idea, as you then have to bring all content up to the level of the then overpowered jobs in order to retain earlier degrees of potential skill expression, let alone challenge.

You are asking that we adjust EVERYTHING BUT ONE JOB, content, jobs, and sub-mechanics alike, instead of just the singular significant problem.