A plea for RNG and proc based gameplay

[posona]

I definitely get where you’re coming from, DNC and BRD are two of my favorite jobs because I love the procs, but I don’t see those two jobs in particular losing procs or getting less in the future. To me it makes sense to add more deterministic moves, but I think procs will always be core to their identity. Hopefully the next ranged job will be similar (although I see it being more likely it leans towards MCH with slightly less selfish gameplay). Other jobs though, to me random procs ruin their flow. If a proc isn’t core to the job, I find it difficult to notice when they happen. But that’s just me; I’m very particular as a controller player, so if I can’t set things up in a way that flows smoothly on the controller and has me pushing things out of place, my brain just can’t adapt.

[Mawlzy]

On why he's removed randomness from jobs:


So Yoshi-P explained that RNG is being removed so that it can be more skill based and also on BLM for example procs were being pushed right to the end of the rotation and were only just barely optimal at certain points, which new players may not be aware of.

He explained AST saying it would make it more skill based and argued there is already some RNG, which is the party makeup and their needs.

They also said in the last live letter that they had a lot of feedback saying they like the RNG but also a lot of feedback saying they don't like the RNG.

Wouldn't the obvious response to such feedback be to preserve RNG in jobs that have traditionally featured it, while keeping it out of other jobs?

[currentlemon]

I am asking for a proc based mechanic for WHM’s Dia spell. Each tick of Dia would give the job a chance to cast the new Glare IV spell.

It’d work similarly to BLM’s old thunder proc.

[Mikey_R]

You might be new to the mmo genre. For a very long time in the mmo scene there are what is referred to as "priority based rotations" and rigid or "static rotations". A priority based rotation sees you following a list of priorities from top to bottom. You have to actually parse the information on screen, understand it and make decisions based on what you are seeing. A static rotation sees you preforming a never changing rotation of abilities, a rotation in the truest sense of the word.
...

None of what you have said disproves the statement that I made in that every job's rotation is based on a priority system, just that some jobs interact with the system more often than others.

As you stated, it is all about damage, when I use Raiden Thrust, I have a choice of Chaotic Spring combo or Heaven's Thrust combo, when Refulgent Arrow procs, you have a choice to use Burst Shot again, or use Refulgent Arrow, etc.

What you want is a job that makes you interact with that priority system more often. However, I think the question should be, how do you want those decisions to come about. What system do you want to see that forces you to interact with that priority system. The type of job you want should then be defined by that system, not the general term 'priority'.

[Azlith]

None of what you have said disproves the statement that I made in that every job's rotation is based on a priority system, just that some jobs interact with the system more often than others.

As you stated, it is all about damage, when I use Raiden Thrust, I have a choice of Chaotic Spring combo or Heaven's Thrust combo, when Refulgent Arrow procs, you have a choice to use Burst Shot again, or use Refulgent Arrow, etc.

What you want is a job that makes you interact with that priority system more often. However, I think the question should be, how do you want those decisions to come about. What system do you want to see that forces you to interact with that priority system. The type of job you want should then be defined by that system, not the general term 'priority'.

You do not have a choice between Chaotic spring combo or heaven's thrust combo. When you play drg you WILL follow an exact and perfect static (never changing) set of gcds and you will not deviate unless you want to do less than optimal dmg. There is no choice being made here, there is no information to parse, just follow the exact set of gcds you are supposed to and you will do optimal dmg. There is no reason to even think, you can literally set up a keyboard macro to do your perfect rotation for you.

I already laid out the definitions of different rotation types that have been established within the mmo space for many many years and I'm not going to do it again. If you can't understand the difference between what is colloquially known in the mmo space as a priority based rotation versus a static rotation then I cannot help you to understand my opinion. If you wish to be pedantic just for the sake of being pedantic then by all means be my guest. I have let my opinion on the topic be known and will not engage in this meaningless pedantry any further. I hope you have a nice day.

[Ramiee]

I mean I'd extend proc based gameplay into some of the healers. Even having something like refulgent arrow would make it far more engaging then one button spam. Don't even need to add too many new buttons just replace old ones and up the damage a bit. It's not like all healers need a dot.

[SeverianLyonesse]

AST's entire DPS mini-game could be RNG cards and/or proc-based stuff.

I am all for this thread.

[Valence]

But I also think that FF is rigid and that's normal. It's the thing with this game. And I'm not sure that's fair asking for the game to be something it isn't inherently.

( As far as I am concerned, I hate rng with passion but as said, I'm not against some jobs having it as core component for ppl that are looking for this kind of gameplay )

More of them used to be like that and it works. I didn't even touch the idea of encounter rng added to the rigid DDR scripts we're being regurgitated again and again. Always has been, fair enough.

But jobs? Rng and procs have been there since the dawn of times. Saying that it's not something the game is inherently just feels wrong, or it's just denying a huge part of its history.

I played HW MCH and "1-1-1-2-1-2-1" was not fun when you were out of ammo and RNG was not on your side. Ammo existed as a mechanic specifically to ignore the RNG in the rotation. It did have a classic "1-2-3" rotation like almost all other jobs and it used it to build battery charge, but without ammo, being able to progress to the next weaponskill in the 1-2-3 was RNG and it wasn't fun or engaging.

DNC's RNG is OK in my book at least in higher levels because the flow is better and there's so many other things to press, but I would never go back to old MCH.

HW MCH has issues with proc fishing I'll definitely agree especially during no luck midlfires (the ones not synced with Reload). The filler could also be sometimes. That's probably why they reduced the recasts of ammo generators in SB and swappe the gauge to 3 instead of 5 which would overwrite themselves. SB procs felt a lot more satisfying imo. But honestly? If you didn't like it, it's fine. I liked it. Some other people liked it. That's why I'm making this thread. This is literally becoming an endangered gameplay as of now with what's been removed in ShB, and now in DT.

Ammo existed as a tool to control procs, firstly bringing different and interesting gameplay depending on what procs you already had up when using it, which asked the player to adjust to the situation, and secondly was used to properly setup the burst sequence patterns, which also required to adjust depending on what was up. It's a big thing that's been completely lost out of the game because only MCH used to do that. DNC used to in ShB, even if less so and in a more annoying way with flourish, but flourish procs have been changed so it's not there anymore.

Acceleration on RDM amusingly enough has been changed to what it is today and it's close to what Reload used to be, but again it doesn't bring the same challenges at all and only plays on RDM's filler, not on burst pattern sequences.

yall act like you are not all just going to the balance for your full rotation break down and print out anyways..

Jokes's on you, I was in the group that worked on some of those rotations (for ShB on MCH).

It would be nice to have that back for a few classes. However, I just don't see that happening since whoever wanted it gone in the first place will fight to keep it that way.

They can go back to the bland linear jobs they enjoy as far as I'm concerned instead of trying to change the ones other players like like entitled "must have it all or nothing" kids.

If the devs hated RNG they wouldn't have added it to begin with. Removing RNG is a reaction to the community complaining about it any time it pops up.

If the devs hated TP, they wouldn't have added it to begin with.

if the devs hated aggro management, they wouldn't have added it to begin with.

Design views and ideals can change. The people working behind them can also change and have different politics about it as well.

Please, no.

Add new jobs with RNG systems as much as you want, but don't force it on the jobs that actually has none.

Like they did on MCH, just the other way? It felt such a slap in the face for literally no reason. And see, every time we speak about how we found mch fun back then, you'll always have somebody that didn't main it show up and tell us it was shit and not fun. Well it was fun for us mains.

Not saying you're doing that here though and I will like you never advocate for sudden invasive rng to be added to jobs that never had it in their identity, but I'm tired of getting told how the job I mained and enjoyed was not fun. I respect other jobs playstyles, all I'm asking is that other playstyles enjoyers respect mine.

I definitely get where you’re coming from, DNC and BRD are two of my favorite jobs because I love the procs, but I don’t see those two jobs in particular losing procs or getting less in the future. To me it makes sense to add more deterministic moves, but I think procs will always be core to their identity. Hopefully the next ranged job will be similar (although I see it being more likely it leans towards MCH with slightly less selfish gameplay). Other jobs though, to me random procs ruin their flow. If a proc isn’t core to the job, I find it difficult to notice when they happen. But that’s just me; I’m very particular as a controller player, so if I can’t set things up in a way that flows smoothly on the controller and has me pushing things out of place, my brain just can’t adapt.

See that's the problem, the doublespeak of the community.

When we ask if we can have some posititionaless melees to try out melees, we get a huge backlash and we get replied that melee's core identity is about positionals. Which is fair.

Then when we tell people that rphys's core identity used to be procs, we get laughed at and people will fight tooth and nail to keep mch as uninspired as it is right now.

Yet there is literally no constraint on the rphys role like casting for casters or melee uptime/positionals for melees. We used to have more involved rotations and toolkits. We used to have a lot of priority and triaging of resources to deal with, and procs were a core of it all.

[vetch]

So Yoshi-P explained that RNG is being removed so that it can be more skill based and also on BLM for example procs were being pushed right to the end of the rotation and were only just barely optimal at certain points, which new players may not be aware of.

He explained AST saying it would make it more skill based and argued there is already some RNG, which is the party makeup and their needs.

There goes Yoshida making up bullshit false dichotomies again. Planning around RNG correctly is a skill. RNG jobs are skill-based. They just ask for other skills besides 'do your 20-step rotation and don't drift your cooldowns'.

File this one in the Yoshida's Nonsense Bin with his 'pure/barrier healer' split and his 'main/off-tank' split.

[Valence]

Ah, I must also address this.

On why he's removed randomness from jobs:

So Yoshi-P explained that RNG is being removed so that it can be more skill based and also on BLM for example procs were being pushed right to the end of the rotation and were only just barely optimal at certain points, which new players may not be aware of.

He explained AST saying it would make it more skill based and argued there is already some RNG, which is the party makeup and their needs.

They also said in the last live letter that they had a lot of feedback saying they like the RNG but also a lot of feedback saying they don't like the RNG.

On thundercloud: I mean if everything must be totally clear and limpid to very green beginners on thundercloud and every mechanic in the game by extension maybe, no wonder the current job design is what we're getting... If a mechanic like Thundercloud cannot exist because of this, there is one word for it: lowering the skill ceiling to the very immediate competence and understanding of the greenest sprout. So where does this leave us? Can't grow much into a job and the skills involved beyond what a sprout would initially understand. When you think about it, it's actually very worrying in my opinion. What he literally says here can be equated to saying that the skill ceiling should stop as soon as a player takes up the job? I'm sorry what?

On AST's rng: well yeah, what he describes is literally every healer ever. You'll be adjusting your heals to whoever takes damage from mechanics, or at least the somewhat random ones (and we have seen how they suddenly love them role agnostic mechanics in the endwalker ultimates...). Of course you're not doing something completely static, or at least you'll see variations depending on the fight, as a healer. Because what those new cards are, even though I love that they actually got back some flavor even if misplaced/misexecuted flavor, is essentially just OGCD mitigations and heals on cooldown, nothing more, since the actual rng behind is gone. You can argue that there is rng in healing in fights, but I'm sorry but that's not job rng. On top of it, I don't understand nor comprehend how rng cards would be more synergistic than a... static loop? Like, isn't it exactly what the 2 min meta for example is? A static loop with max synergy potential every 120s? What does he think is going to happen with non rng damage cards? Yes, the only thing that remains, like for basic healing, is that the target of the card will change at times, if that's what he meant.