A plea for RNG and proc based gameplay

[KisaiTenshi]

After the release of job changes in the media tour, it becomes obvious to me that the devs just hate RNG and proc gameplay.

RNG is almost always "poor" gameplay. You're replacing skill with random chance. When it comes to optimal gameplay, a proc-based job will be passed over in favor of the non-proc-based play.

Where RNG can be "good" gameplay is when the proc itself bounces the variables. So you are never required to fire off the proc for optimal play, but if you press it correctly, your next chain adds more damage, or has less recast, or something like that, and it just stacks until you cast something the proc doesn't apply to, or get KO'd. Optimal gameplay is then simply "using" the proc rather than having hold off using the proc for the optimal usage time.

Like the problem with AST for example, is that the cards are random, thus you can't plan anything. So what you tend to run into are AST's who just either don't use the cards, or they use the cards on themselves because that extra time required to target another player reduces their DPS, or they miss a group heal or some excuse. Nevermind how useless it is to fish for the Cure1/Benefic1 proc. MP is not a problem anymore. Lucid Dreaming is available at level 14 (60s CD), the first dungeon is level 15. You used to not have a 'refresh' skill until level 36 (Shroud of Saints, 120s CD). So the need to fish for a "freecure" is non-existent.

When things are "random" in terms of their availability, then they are just not used, or sometimes just too much stress to use, what if I get "good proc" when I don't need it and it kills the CD when I need it? What if I get a proc that isn't useful here?

The actual design of the game has been stripping out a lot of things that make jobs and races different because otherwise people would build meta's of 'best in slot' gear + "best DPS", nothing else get's used. Remember that the original races had some very small (like 2 points) differences in stats. You used to be able to put bonus points into certain stats. You used to be able to meld elemental affinity to gear. All of that is "random" variables that a dungeon choreography can't deal with, and NPC players won't have. I would love for there to be reasons to swap, say a full "fire" affinity set with a full water affinity set to do more damage, or protect against certain bosses, but the actual dungeon design does not want you to do this. We've seen games do this, and players just wear the gear that makes them super strong just to go glass-cannon and one-shot the boss. Then they never use that gear again. Farm the dungeon till you get what you want, and then repeat for the next one.

That's why you can't really do RNG based combat in this game. It encourages players to play the optimal meta and ignore everything else.

[tearagion]

...what?

anyway agree, most fun recent mmo class I've played outside of FFXIV was Arcana in Lost Ark, Empress and Emperor. It'd be nice if something scratched the same itch. Current jobs that involve some decision making around what procs you get when (BLM and BRD from my experience) show tiny tiny amounts of how fun a whole RNG job could be.

[Valence]

Raid encounter design would have to change to make room for rng. right now rng just makes you worse than everyone else sometimes for no reason and it's outside of your control

You're aware that the variance of rng jobs just doesn't swing that high right, considering the sample amount of the total of skills that generate procs in the whole duration of a fight? For bard, there is 400 repertoire ticks potentially generating procs with a 80% chance behind over a 10min long encounter for example. In comparison, there is only 5 uses of a 2min burst 1000+ potency skill over the same length for a lot of non rng jobs, so it's not much of a stretch to imagine the actual swing in crit variance this will actually bring in comparison.

RNG is almost always "poor" gameplay. You're replacing skill with random chance. When it comes to optimal gameplay, a proc-based job will be passed over in favor of the non-proc-based play.

Where RNG can be "good" gameplay is when the proc itself bounces the variables. So you are never required to fire off the proc for optimal play, but if you press it correctly, your next chain adds more damage, or has less recast, or something like that, and it just stacks until you cast something the proc doesn't apply to, or get KO'd. Optimal gameplay is then simply "using" the proc rather than having hold off using the proc for the optimal usage time.

Like the problem with AST for example, is that the cards are random, thus you can't plan anything. So what you tend to run into are AST's who just either don't use the cards, or they use the cards on themselves because that extra time required to target another player reduces their DPS, or they miss a group heal or some excuse. Nevermind how useless it is to fish for the Cure1/Benefic1 proc. MP is not a problem anymore. Lucid Dreaming is available at level 14 (60s CD), the first dungeon is level 15. You used to not have a 'refresh' skill until level 36 (Shroud of Saints, 120s CD). So the need to fish for a "freecure" is non-existent.

When things are "random" in terms of their availability, then they are just not used, or sometimes just too much stress to use, what if I get "good proc" when I don't need it and it kills the CD when I need it? What if I get a proc that isn't useful here?

The actual design of the game has been stripping out a lot of things that make jobs and races different because otherwise people would build meta's of 'best in slot' gear + "best DPS", nothing else get's used. Remember that the original races had some very small (like 2 points) differences in stats. You used to be able to put bonus points into certain stats. You used to be able to meld elemental affinity to gear. All of that is "random" variables that a dungeon choreography can't deal with, and NPC players won't have. I would love for there to be reasons to swap, say a full "fire" affinity set with a full water affinity set to do more damage, or protect against certain bosses, but the actual dungeon design does not want you to do this. We've seen games do this, and players just wear the gear that makes them super strong just to go glass-cannon and one-shot the boss. Then they never use that gear again. Farm the dungeon till you get what you want, and then repeat for the next one.

That's why you can't really do RNG based combat in this game. It encourages players to play the optimal meta and ignore everything else.

There is infinitely more skill in making decisions on the fly and dealing with randomly generated chaos than just following a set sequence of buttons... If you're referring to DNC or BRD GCD procs for example, it's true that there is nothing much beyond "just press what lights up", but even this is still harder than just going for the next predictable combo step that also lights up.

Now if you introduce procs within the contest of a burst window, then suddenly they dramatically introduce choices and triaging and priorities to make quick reactions with since depending on with what procs you enter the burst or not you'll have to re arrange your burst sequence, and then potentially further re arrange it again as soon as procs appear as long a the burst isn't over.

As for the filler segments, again, MCH ammo did it already well by making your adjust to the procs you already had (or not) and how to triage them into the correct order of use.

We had a lot of good rng/proc examples in the past, and even today there is still some remnants of it, it does work in the game if made right.

I do agree with you though, you can do much, much more around a proc system.

I mean, getting boned by RNG isn't really a skill. It's just pure suffering.

I mean, I respect your feeling and tastes on rng, but do we really have to draw a line in the ground so that your kind stops coming over the fence to tell us how we should enjoy the jobs we main, and how we don't deserve to retain or have a bit more of a type of gameplay we enjoy? It's not like the game is lacking of non rng jobs right now...

[ShadowNyx3]

I mean, I respect your feeling and tastes on rng, but do we really have to draw a line in the ground so that your kind stops coming over the fence to tell us how we should enjoy the jobs we main, and how we don't deserve to retain or have a bit more of a type of gameplay we enjoy? It's not like the game is lacking of non rng jobs right now...

Tell us how you really feel.

[Amenara]

I have wanted a job with the proc/priority system playstyle in FF14 since I tried out fury warrior in dragonflight. It's about 4 or 5 buttons that will randomly reset their CDs and it's all about just knowing which of them is the most important to press. That combined with a really fast playstyle kept it really entertaining for me.

[Kathryn]

I have wanted a job with the proc/priority system playstyle in FF14 since I tried out fury warrior in dragonflight. It's about 4 or 5 buttons that will randomly reset their CDs and it's all about just knowing which of them is the most important to press. That combined with a really fast playstyle kept it really entertaining for me.

WoW has some of the best combat playstyle in my honest opinion, it can be very quick and snappy and actually involves some sort off thinking and skill instead of pressing the same buttons over and over ad nauseam.

[Taranok]

WoW has some of the best combat playstyle in my honest opinion, it can be very quick and snappy and actually involves some sort off thinking and skill instead of pressing the same buttons over and over ad nauseam.

I disagree, but I also despise WoW's proc-based gameplay. That said, my hatred of WoW's general playstyle doesn't mean that FFXIV shouldn't have it, and I do agree that FFXIV needs more proc-based classes. Just not on classes where procs didn't make sense. BLM is always brought up as a proc class, and it indeed used to be a proc mage, but ever since HW, the procs have been a smaller and smaller part of the class. But BRD used to be more proc-dependent than it is now, and RDM used to have a second proc. Not sure how I'd specifically work the procs back in, but it would be nice if the devs did for people who want proc classes.

Also, proc tank and proc melee.

[Kathryn]

I disagree, but I also despise WoW's proc-based gameplay. That said, my hatred of WoW's general playstyle doesn't mean that FFXIV shouldn't have it, and I do agree that FFXIV needs more proc-based classes. Just not on classes where procs didn't make sense. BLM is always brought up as a proc class, and it indeed used to be a proc mage, but ever since HW, the procs have been a smaller and smaller part of the class. But BRD used to be more proc-dependent than it is now, and RDM used to have a second proc. Not sure how I'd specifically work the procs back in, but it would be nice if the devs did for people who want proc classes.

Also, proc tank and proc melee.

Sadly with the release of PCT and VPR the Dev team are doubling down on the boring static rotations and moving more and more jobs away from proccing, while I'd love a proc based class I can't see it happening, it's one of the main reasons I dislike combat in this game, its too sluggish for my tastes but I come from a Mage/Hunter background.

[Amenara]

I think the balance is to have a couple jobs that use a proc/priority system so that if you don't like the system you can play something else if they were to implement it. Would be nice to have representation of a different playstyle than static rotation for almost everything like now.

[Dysvalence]

Dunno why people are so against RNG when crit variance has haunted the entire roster for years.

With that said, a kit built from the ground up around risk management is going to fare better than a static kit with an RNG element stapled on. DNC is kinda bad at this but current BLM does it well. You have tools for worst case RNG and the procs are instant, giving BLM weave slots and movement, and is otherwise tightly integrated into the kit. This is independent of how hard one is trying to optimize- lower skilled players will find the additional movement comfy, while the most cracked of spreadsheet nerds can have their builder/spender lines.