A plea for RNG and proc based gameplay

[Valence]

Ah, I must also address this.

On why he's removed randomness from jobs:

So Yoshi-P explained that RNG is being removed so that it can be more skill based and also on BLM for example procs were being pushed right to the end of the rotation and were only just barely optimal at certain points, which new players may not be aware of.

He explained AST saying it would make it more skill based and argued there is already some RNG, which is the party makeup and their needs.

They also said in the last live letter that they had a lot of feedback saying they like the RNG but also a lot of feedback saying they don't like the RNG.

On thundercloud: I mean if everything must be totally clear and limpid to very green beginners on thundercloud and every mechanic in the game by extension maybe, no wonder the current job design is what we're getting... If a mechanic like Thundercloud cannot exist because of this, there is one word for it: lowering the skill ceiling to the very immediate competence and understanding of the greenest sprout. So where does this leave us? Can't grow much into a job and the skills involved beyond what a sprout would initially understand. When you think about it, it's actually very worrying in my opinion. What he literally says here can be equated to saying that the skill ceiling should stop as soon as a player takes up the job? I'm sorry what?

On AST's rng: well yeah, what he describes is literally every healer ever. You'll be adjusting your heals to whoever takes damage from mechanics, or at least the somewhat random ones (and we have seen how they suddenly love them role agnostic mechanics in the endwalker ultimates...). Of course you're not doing something completely static, or at least you'll see variations depending on the fight, as a healer. Because what those new cards are, even though I love that they actually got back some flavor even if misplaced/misexecuted flavor, is essentially just OGCD mitigations and heals on cooldown, nothing more, since the actual rng behind is gone. You can argue that there is rng in healing in fights, but I'm sorry but that's not job rng. On top of it, I don't understand nor comprehend how rng cards would be more synergistic than a... static loop? Like, isn't it exactly what the 2 min meta for example is? A static loop with max synergy potential every 120s? What does he think is going to happen with non rng damage cards? Yes, the only thing that remains, like for basic healing, is that the target of the card will change at times, if that's what he meant.

[Hanzz96]

I made a post about this as well.

There are 18 other jobs currently that fo not have procs/rng but they have always been a key factor in bard and dancers identity and redmage as well to an extent.

If what they showed of bard at fanfest is an indication of the final product I am very concerned. We are getting these changes because for better or worse people screamed buzz words like "job identity" and "meta" but making these requested changes should not come at the expense of identity these jobs have had since inception.

Some people find RNG fun! The serotonin when you get a high roll, the decision making of whether to refresh dots early and waste a tick or risk hitting burst shot and getting a refulgent proc that you may then have to override to refresh dots before they fall. The decision on whether to send 2 stacks of PP early with EA coming up for less potency or risk waiting for EA and potentially overcapping with a rep proc.

The joy of rolling high on feathers and the despair you share with your fellow dancer mains when you proc a single feather in 2 whole minutes.

If these changes are indeed about job idenity and not making jobs easier then there is no need to remove RNG that some people love. But if RNG is gone then these changes are indeed about making jobs are braindead for new people and people who don't push a lot of content as possible.

[Turtledeluxe]

There are 18 other jobs currently that fo not have procs/rng

That's because over time its been removed. I was wondering if you were submitting feedback when BLM was getting bulldozed. Or are you just submitting feedback for jobs you play exclusively? Not trying to be snarky but I genuinely do not remember you submitting this type of feedback for BLM. And no I have not checked what jobs you play.

In any case, removing procs and RNG (and while we're at it, I'd like my timers back thank you) can only really be based on two player based motivations unless I'm not thinking of something: how the job feels to play and DPS. The former is something anyone can comment on but DPS is, on the whole, only something I would expect someone who has done high end content to care about. In the presentation you keep referencing they mentioned modifying actions to offset a DPS loss. Is that something Jimmy who plays once a week is going to even be aware of? Odds are if you care about DPS, you're using and understand how to interpret FFLogs. If you're doing that, odds are you know openers, standard and maybe nonstandard rotations. You play or played high end content.

That said, I think we're in a post "is it the casuals or is it the raiders" era. Evolved is just what the team (or technically one person) wanted. They told us, this is a great time to jump into healing if you haven't before (I'm sure it was also easier back when WHM actually was lvl 50 and had less buttons). We could interpret this as a push to get more people healing, and maybe it is, but it's also just about attracting people to the game in a prime time, heavily viewed event. And it's not like only jobs got reworked, they introduced 9 million other things that seem to simply be in their financial interest, bringing people back to the game. While it would be nice to blame whoever for the accessibility push, I don't think its useful or interesting to blame Evolved on anyone really except people who mass unsubbed from DT and forced their hand in doing a massive update. But if we did have to pin it down it's all of the above. It's players who care about DPS loss, its players who are scared to heal or find it too difficult, etc.

[Azurarok]

(I'm sure it was also easier back when WHM actually was lvl 50 and had less buttons).

I sure don't have that impression. StoneI-II, AeroI-II were separate spells, Fluid Aura existed, Cleric Stance existed, MP management was real, autos and tankbusters could crit, cast times were longer (especially Holy), and cross-classing existed.

And yet, tanks were apparently the ones that had scarcity problems up through SB, to the point where they created achievements to lure players into it.

[posona]

I definitely get where you’re coming from, DNC and BRD are two of my favorite jobs because I love the procs, but I don’t see those two jobs in particular losing procs or getting less in the future. To me it makes sense to add more deterministic moves, but I think procs will always be core to their identity. Hopefully the next ranged job will be similar (although I see it being more likely it leans towards MCH with slightly less selfish gameplay). Other jobs though, to me random procs ruin their flow. If a proc isn’t core to the job, I find it difficult to notice when they happen. But that’s just me; I’m very particular as a controller player, so if I can’t set things up in a way that flows smoothly on the controller and has me pushing things out of place, my brain just can’t adapt.

[currentlemon]

I am asking for a proc based mechanic for WHM’s Dia spell. Each tick of Dia would give the job a chance to cast the new Glare IV spell.

It’d work similarly to BLM’s old thunder proc.

[Ramiee]

I mean I'd extend proc based gameplay into some of the healers. Even having something like refulgent arrow would make it far more engaging then one button spam. Don't even need to add too many new buttons just replace old ones and up the damage a bit. It's not like all healers need a dot.

[SeverianLyonesse]

AST's entire DPS mini-game could be RNG cards and/or proc-based stuff.

I am all for this thread.

[Sjol]

I find the secret to RNG mechanics to be just getting enough rolls at the table. Over time the rolls will even out. This is a lot trickier when you have such high potency variance because you're not going to make up a 3.2x multiplier on a 1000 potency attack. Which brings up the second design constraint: burst windows are antithetical to RNG based jobs -- they just ramp up the multiplier.

[KageTokage]

I find the secret to RNG mechanics to be just getting enough rolls at the table. Over time the rolls will even out. This is a lot trickier when you have such high potency variance because you're not going to make up a 3.2x multiplier on a 1000 potency attack. Which brings up the second design constraint: burst windows are antithetical to RNG based jobs -- they just ramp up the multiplier.

This is another reason why I'm confused about DT's job design choices because they added a ton of 1k+ potency actions that do not auto-DH/crit so now everyone is subject to more RNG-based damage variance overall.