Bring Back Kaiten

[Silhart]

Oh lord... I can understand BLM because it's rather easy to mess up your rotation and loose enochian when you start. But SMN... like you litterally have to only think of "where do I put ifrit" every minute. And even if you miss that, loosing 2 ifrit gcd wouldn't make you do that low of a DPS. Just how...

For what it's worth: those statistics are scuffed beyond belief, I had to check again to see whether I had made a mistake. It turns out FFLogs defaults to showing the logs between 6.5 and whatever patch introduced Echo, so the number of SMN logs uploaded for that time period is less than N=500. I'd take the data in my initial post with a massive grain of salt. 6.4 and Echo have a much larger sample size of SMN logs (we're talking thousands) and show a more normal-looking distribution.
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I have nothing further to add to the Kaiten discussion, other than the fact that it was the entire reason I made this forum account in years ago. Years later, I still miss it. I don't think we're going to get it back, but I wish some parts of FFXIV's community would start asking for IMPROVEMENTS on job elements that don't meet their standards, rather than demanding their removal.

"Oh, Kaiten didn't require any thought". You know what? That's a valid point, but that doesn't mean it needed to be removed. If people perceive this to be a problem, why not advocate for ways to improve it? I'm echoing someone else's idea from years back, but Kaiten could have served a dual purpose in buffing Iaijutsu AND enabling filler GCDs by preventing SAM's next GCD from generating Sen (also buffing its damage by an appropriate amount to compensate). This way, Kaiten would require a bit more thought because it now also plays a role in keeping your 2 minute burst aligned. For people who took issue with Kaiten, I have every confidence that you're creative thinkers and are capable of coming up with something that addresses your grievances without screwing over the people who liked Kaiten for what it was. Because face it, if we removed every job action that didn't require any thought, the game as we know it would cease to exist.

[Post]

This is an excellent point and I'd love to draw comparisons to many things that are just 'gone' now, from Dark Arts to DoTs to enmity to cleric stance to TP, some of which even get fixed as they're axed (6.0 ground targeted aoes and Salted Earth) or are axed from old jobs yet given to new ones (SAM -> RPR AoE shape variety; MNK -> VPR buff and debuff maintenance).

Another thing to add to this is that it's so, so much harder to add these things back in, because it's going to feel like needless complexity, especially to any new players that have already settled in.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

[Sjol]

but I wish some parts of FFXIV's community would start asking for IMPROVEMENTS on job elements that don't meet their standards, rather than demanding their removal.

I wish SE would stop pretending that the people on the forums are good job designers. It's one thing to listen to customer pain points, it's entirely another to take their suggestions for fixes and apply them.

Design is a skillset and one that most people playing this game don't have. I've seen a lot of products ruined by taking customer design requests directly and implementing them. Customers understand their pain. That you can't argue with. But taking their solutions to the problem and applying them directly is lazy pandering. The customer isn't always right when they're telling you how to run your business or how to design your products.

"Kaiten feeling bad or being confusing" is good feedback. "Please remove Kaiten" is bad feedback.

[AsiTsurugi]

It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people...

Huh, really? Because I read this the other day, from someone who claims to know how the "casuals" play this game, like you:

They effectively were competing for the exact same resource, both were off global uses for it especially with Kaiten's CD reduction to 1s. Kaiten's PPK (Potency per Kenki) was just tuned higher for your Iajutsu casts so you hit a different button before using them.
...
As for why Kaiten wasn't reduced in potency? For one simple reason my dude. Potency per Kenki, which makes it so you want to press abilities over others. Reducing it's contribution and leaving it in was not on the cards due to it would have an adverse effect on Shinten, Kyuten, Guren and Senei.

So which of the two is true here? That the "random scrub in Ul'dah" doesn't know how tooltips and PPK works, or that they are all aware of that and still want it gone because they can't handle two buttons competing for the same resource?

Pretty weird contradiction from people that claim they know exactly why Kaiten needed to cease existing, no? One might even be correct in guessing that people like this just hate anyone having fun at all because they are too inept to wrap their heads around more than one button existing, and consequently come up with whatever words they think fit together.

Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

Sounds like skill issue there buddy. If you are being compared to "bad sams", then maybe you want to let your supposedly superior performance do the speaking and ignore the naysayers, instead of wanting everything dragged down the the level of these "bad sams", so you can then, presumably, feel good about not being the only one being besmirched. Because, to counter your anecdotal experience anecdotally, I am barely average at sam, and no one compares me to these "bad sams" you refer to, not even when I barely started playing the game a few years ago in ShB, which had both Kaiten and Tsubame.

[Equitable_Remedy]

Despite being the easiest and most straightforward job to play

Summoner somehow has the most variation in DPS scores among every job in savage.

Narrative violation!

[Eorzean_username]

[SeverianLyonesse]

I'm convinced this is why they keep removing these skills: to "make room" for the new jobs that are just the same thing again.

Which, if you look at the history of "charge up" moves, you could argue Dark Arts was killed to make room for Kaiten.

[Siritachi31]

Honestly we need something to change. We're losing too many abilities then watching new jobs get those abilities. You can't tell us it's action bloat to have a buff button, then give the new class one. You can't consolidate abilities, then refuse to re add an ability you took away because there isn't room. Dark knight feels like a different job from when it came out. Jobs are constantly becoming new jobs over time and we often don't know why or when we do it doesn't make sense. I really really hope 8.0 fixes jobs better. But we shouldn't have to wait 3 years for our favorite jobs to hopefully become fun again

[Ruminous]

Wow, this thread's a blast from the past. Still wish they'd add the skill back in or at least make kenki management a thing other than "spend it on shitten" (yes that's a purposeful misspelling of it, I hate that skill now). I mean at this point they could just remove the kenki gauge and throw the ability on charges. It'll get rid of the visual clutter of the UI. And before you tell me simple gauges exist, no gauge at all = more space on the screen.

Still, I don't have a horse in the race anymore. I quit playing the job after 6.1 dropped and have barely touched it since. The times I have, well...Can't say they were the best. But I least I got striking gear for monk in 7.0.

[rewd]

I'm convinced this is why they keep removing these skills: to "make room" for the new jobs that are just the same thing again.

Which, if you look at the history of "charge up" moves, you could argue Dark Arts was killed to make room for Kaiten.

The skills in the meme have nothing in common and who made the pic doesn't understand how Pictomancer works.