Boring design

[Supersnow845]

Let's not pretend that shake it off and divine veil, even with the initial heal, were particularly useful against any bleedwide in abyssos. Let's also not pretend that dark knight wasn't insanely overtuned defensively and offensively in asphodelos and abyssos. This seems a bit like a lack of communication or forethought between the raid and job design teams. That said, the reluctance on the dev's part to be perceived to nerf things does not help at all, especially with the all comps are viable/accessibility angle they seem to have adopted. I am also skeptical that utility heavy bursty tanks can be appropriately balanced with how much swing raid buff stacking carries.

Benewhetting only really applies during dungeons, which does not seem to be the focus of balancing. Nonetheless I would rather nascent put back to shb and benewhetting changed to just temphp and mit or shield and mit. edit: To say the quiet part aloud, no matter which tank you have, they shouldn't be struggling in any way shape or form in expert dungeons.

That’s the point though, the raidwide mitigations were meant to have upsides and downsides

The magical mitigations are explicitly designed to be better at bleedwides and multihit raidwides (like terminal relativity), while the shields are Omni mitigation that doesn’t suffer from diminishing returns but once they crack they are gone

The only real problem with the communication was block not blocking bleeds so PLD just got shredded, DRK Having higher defence at the expense of sustain and having the arguably weaker type of mitigation is totally fine, it’s having upsides and downsides for different tanks

Benewhetting only applies in dungeons but bloodwhetting still heals for 1000 healer potency per activation of bloodwhetting plus all its other heals, it’s not like it’s remotely balanced (the magic healing combo combined with holy Shelton is arguably no better)

[Lyth]

Let's not pretend that shake it off and divine veil, even with the initial heal, were particularly useful against any bleedwide in abyssos.

I don't follow your claim.

The trade-off between barriers and damage resistance has to do with the total damage associated with the raidwide. Mathematically, it doesn't matter if the total damage is distributed as a multihit or incorporates a DoT (the latter which is equivalent to the multihit case). Take the sum of the damage across all hits (or ticks). If that total damage is equal to 100% of your HP, that's the break even point where damage resistance and barriers are equivalent. Below that, barriers are more effective. Above, damage resistance.

In the case of Shake it Off, you need a raidwide that hits for 150-210% of your total HP as a break even point for a 10% damage resistance effect to be equivalent, since Shake it Off has a higher barrier percentage. This is before you account for the burst healing and regen 'additional effects' that have been added in this expansion. That's also not even accounting for the fact that two tank raidwides don't even work against physical effects like P10S' HH.

The idea of DoT effects on raidwides are not new. Almagest was a thing in the very same tier that Shake it Off was turned into a barrier. This is a classic case of people pushing the boundaries. Why doesn't Shake it Off have a barrier-over-time effect to help counter DoT effects? Perhaps it needs to come with an invuln as well.

I think we're losing track of the division of responsibility in roles here. Tanks are there to make the wave of incoming damage survivable, not raid heal through it with a zero downside, zero cost oGCD. This needs to be rolled back.

[fulminating]

That’s the point though, the raidwide mitigations were meant to have upsides and downsides

The magical mitigations are explicitly designed to be better at bleedwides and multihit raidwides (like terminal relativity), while the shields are Omni mitigation that doesn’t suffer from diminishing returns but once they crack they are gone

The only real problem with the communication was block not blocking bleeds so PLD just got shredded, DRK Having higher defence at the expense of sustain and having the arguably weaker type of mitigation is totally fine, it’s having upsides and downsides for different tanks

Benewhetting only applies in dungeons but bloodwhetting still heals for 1000 healer potency per activation of bloodwhetting plus all its other heals, it’s not like it’s remotely balanced (the magic healing combo combined with holy Shelton is arguably no better)

I have looked at some logs and changed my mind. DPS should have no access to feint/addle/uniquename, mitigation should be done entirely by the tank because the red guys can't be trusted.

[Supersnow845]

I have looked at some logs and changed my mind. DPS should have no access to feint/addle/uniquename, mitigation should be done entirely by the tank because the red guys can't be trusted.

Raidwide mitigation should be the purview of the shield healer with single target mitigation being the purview of the tanks (mostly for themselves)

The tanks already have too much raidwide responsibility for the role that is least affected by raidwides

[fulminating]

Raidwide mitigation should be the purview of the shield healer with single target mitigation being the purview of the tanks (mostly for themselves)

The tanks already have too much raidwide responsibility for the role that is lead affected by raidwides

Tank limit break is a raidwide mitigation. I don't care if party mitigation is split between healers and tanks as long as the damn button is actually pressed at an appropriate point.

[Valence]

Raidwide mitigation should be the purview of the shield healer with single target mitigation being the purview of the tanks (mostly for themselves)

The tanks already have too much raidwide responsibility for the role that is least affected by raidwides

What are we rphys supposed to do sadge

[Supersnow845]

What are we rphys supposed to do sadge

The phys ranged have options if square ever leant into them properly, either as different flavours of DPS or true support if square would ever allow that to be a proper category

MCH being the “off shield healer” really isn’t the sort of direction I think phys ranged should go in

[rawker]

What are we rphys supposed to do sadge

They can focus more on their intended gimmicks: DNC with their partners, MCH with their Automatons, BRDs, I think, should be the exception.

[AmiableApkallu]

What are we rphys supposed to do sadge

Get the mobs and adds that the melee cannot physically get to or reach.

(If mobs being on the other side of a pit or flying off the ground were actually things and mattered, for example. Perhaps along the lines of the second boss's minions in Dzemael Darkhold.)

[Valence]

The phys ranged have options if square ever leant into them properly, either as different flavours of DPS or true support if square would ever allow that to be a proper category

MCH being the “off shield healer” really isn’t the sort of direction I think phys ranged should go in

I do agree in spirit. However this would require an extensive rework of the whole battle system. I do hope someday this will happen (copium).

They can focus more on their intended gimmicks: DNC with their partners, MCH with their Automatons, BRDs, I think, should be the exception.

What do those gimmicks mean in terms of role identity?

You always claim that you hate that removed true pets from the game (I feel you, I was a MCH main with a pet lite to manage). If you remove us our current non support options, then what's left? Not that our current support actually matters anyway to begin with, i'll grant you that, but that just goes to show in which sorry state this role has been since ShB got introduced.

Get the mobs and adds that the melee cannot physically get to or reach.

(If mobs being on the other side of a pit or flying off the ground were actually things and mattered, for example. Perhaps along the lines of the second boss's minions in Dzemael Darkhold.)

I like this idea actually, although it could cause problems once the meeles are done with their side and are twiddling their thumbs waiting for the ranged people to do their part. Having a grappling hook on cooldown (like Blota) could be interesting perhaps.

I feel like there is a lot of potential to be had around ranged jobs having a lot of line AoEs (very long ones) that are able to hit the main pack and whatever stands far behind, or similar things. But that's beyond the OP here anyway.