After 1 (arguably 2) expansions what is square trying to achieve with WAR (and PLD)?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

So shoehorn them onto the OT role, then? There aren't other innovative ways to validate the OT role without encroaching on healers? I sense a lack of vision and creativity if I'm to be frank. Nascent Flash would have been a phenomenal ability to give healers. Particularly the barrier healers.

Again, I don't play tanks extensively. I can understand why giving them mitigation to help out can be and is useful. To give them healing on top of it is where I take issue. How this dev team can't see that giving healing to tanks, particularly passive healing that does not sacrifice their damage output is a problem.TOP being able to be cleared without healers is inexcusable.

What are you talking about? Warrior is perceived as the de facto main tank for most players and without Nascent Flash as a mitigation tool all you'd create is a situation where WAR ever not being enmity #1 or regularly taking damage as enmity #2 is just utterly useless.

We changed PLDs mitigation, removed enmity combos and how stances work in general so PLD can be equally effective as MT. We had DRK's TBN replacing the parry engine and the shield go from 10% to 25% on target so they can be a useful OT. But when WAR gets to have Nascent Flash so they don't have to perma MT to be valuable that is a problem?

It's not an issue that it exists, it's only an issue how much healing it provides. It should heal decently, but not this much. All it needs is tweaking, not removal because it is still a very well fitting mitigation tool.

And giving tanks healing potencies is not a problem in a vacuum. Holy Sheltron, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash and Heart of Corundum providing healing as they do should have met in the middle with encounter design amping the tank damage taken and frequency to warrant all these buffs, but they failed to do so. Making the healing a dps loss only leads to more clemency and StB inner beast being created.

As for The Omega Protocol being done without healers, this one is minimally an issue with Nascent Flash and more the abundance of AOE healing and regen option their comp provided. Divine Veil x 2 for heals and shield, Shake it Off for heal, shield and regen (both 90s), Phoenix every odd minute with a Medica II worth of regen, Curing Waltz every minute, Arcane Crest aoe regen every 30s. And cover blocking magic number debuff from applying. Of course people can clear with that if you make raid wide damage so predictable and little despite Healers virtually having healing kits they could use to heal raid fights two expansions ahead of themselves with no further additions.

Healers being replacable is a raidwide damage design issue. Healers being boring on top of that is an issue of neglecting the damage kits entirely. Nascent Flash isn't at fault here, it's Shake it Off.

[4clubbedace]

bloodwheting is only obnoxious in dungeons, in raid fights its likne, nothing really that special

[TheOperator3712]

Would it? I mean, you still get 20% mit, you still get a shield half as big as TBN and 1200-1600 potency worth of healing.

Why would that be a problem? You're literally still packing with 1,600p heal + 400p shield + 10% mit on that one single button assuming they nerf it down proccing once per GCD. That is still stronger than Equilibrium in potency per minute. Why do you need more? That's totally not a 'useless healing'. All that does is they would bring WAR's sustenance down close to PLD's degree, which if anybody knows anything at all, is still arguably excess on the hands of capable PLDs.

Today's BW is 4 Benedictions with 17s downtime. You don't need ANY other cooldowns to be used in that 8s uptime unlike PLD's Holy Shelltron within the same situation.

Firstly, you don't get 20% mit, you get 19% mit for four seconds and then 10% mit for the remaining four. The shield is not half of TBN, TBN is 25% of the target's HP. BW shield is 400 potency. 400 healing potency is about 8k on my WAR, at just over 100k HP TBN is over 25k in shielding. Note that TBN will continue to out scale BW shield as HP values soar.

1200-1600 potency worth of healing is ~24k-32k; currently. This sounds like a lot until you look at incoming damage in dungeons, and consider that is spread out over three to four GCDs. Equilibrium heals 24k instantly, and mobs chew through that in seconds. Wall to walls are currently putting out 7.5k-8k DTPS before mobs start to die. That’s a lot, if you had to sustain that level of damage for an entire encounter; it would be one of the hardest Savage fights ever made (if even possible).

This thread: 'The community is not part of the problem.'

WAR mains: 'Tank self-sustain is not part of the problem.'

Players aren't interested in balance. They're interested in maximizing their advantages over others. Balance is just a developer compromise on those demands. Sometimes that means ignoring the loudest voices and issuing nerfs.

Please do strawman harder.

Bloodwhetting should be nerfed to a point that single target or AOE you do not get a full heal out of its duration, that should be the bare minimum of its nerfs

You already don't get a full heal out of it in single target. Four hits of BW are ~32k healing on my WAR, which has just over 100k HP. If you're full healing off of BW in single target, it's because you didn't get hit hard enough. Which is one of the reasons I'm saying that the content is part of the problem.

I don't really understand why WAR absolutely has to keep the healing on every enemy hit when PLD gets only 1 heal per cast and they function in big pulls perfectly fine. The only other tank that has a heal on every enemy hit is DRK, but theirs is a single hit every 60s.

You don't understand why WAR absolutely has to keep something we've had since 2.0 with Bloodbath? How about because we don't want to lose any more tank identity?

…Tell me, why TF does WAR have Nascent Flash? Give me a valid reason why they need it, and why this isn't a healer role skill. Is it more viable in savage/ultimate? Are healers incompetent in this content? I see suggestions for tanks being able to heal once per GCD, like having some kind of passive bloodbath active full time. Why TF do they need this?

DRK is really the only tank that doesn't have the kind of sustain that encroaches on healers. Earlier I stated that Xeno's only suggestion to address this issue is to give healers more to do. I actually I agree with that. They should have more to heal, and this doesn't apply to only the game's more difficult content. Let healers heal FFS. Is that really such a huge thing to ask for? I don't think any healer signs up for the kind of gameplay and treatment they get. Push them. Challenge them. Allow them to play the effin game.

WAR has Nascent Flash, because ShB decided that every tank needed a way to contribute to the main tank's mitigation. It's definitely more useful in Savage where busters can actually kill you. Healers are quite often incompetent in normal content, that's why I don't play DRK. I haven’t really touched Savage this expansion with how bad the job design has been, so I can’t comment on healers there currently. Past experience leads me to desire as much self-healing as possible in all content though. And I've seen absolutely no one suggest giving tanks 100% uptime healing on every GCD, that's you misreading. And they absolutely wouldn't need that.
6.2 tried giving healers more to heal and you know what happened? They all quit. PF had a healer drought for the entire tier.

So shoehorn them onto the OT role, then? There aren't other innovative ways to validate the OT role without encroaching on healers? I sense a lack of vision and creativity if I'm to be frank. Nascent Flash would have been a phenomenal ability to give healers. Particularly the barrier healers.

Again, I don't play tanks extensively. I can understand why giving them mitigation to help out can be and is useful. To give them healing on top of it is where I take issue. How this dev team can't see that giving healing to tanks, particularly passive healing that does not sacrifice their damage output is a problem.TOP being able to be cleared without healers is inexcusable.

A more innovative way of giving the self-healing, high HP tank a way to contribute as an OT? I can’t think of another solution that would be in line with WAR’s thematic design and job identity.
It really shows that you don’t play tanks extensively, here or elsewhere. One of the best tank designs of all time is Blood DK in WoW. Its entire design is healing through the damage that it takes. 2.0 WAR was basically Blood DK at home. So much so that IB was nearly a carbon copy of Death Strike; Blood DK’s self-healing ability. Point being that a tank that heals them self is an idea that has been around for a while and has been done very well elsewhere.

TOP being cleared without healers has almost nothing to do with the WAR. That was heavy usage of Clemency, with a comp that had a ton of self-heal, combined with entirely too little damage output from the fight. TOP is the epitome of what I was saying when I said it’s not just tank design.

[Reimmi]

Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

It would be the exact same as on single target, you just want to be immortal.
If drk can do wall to walls with much worse healing, war will be fine without the TGM console command.

[TheOperator3712]

It would be the exact same as on single target, you just want to be immortal.
If drk can do wall to walls with much worse healing, war will be fine without the TGM console command.

You take significantly less damage in single target. DRK can do wall to walls, that does not mean it does them comfortably. DRK has the worst time with dungeons for obvious reasons, and I wouldn't want any of the tanks to be more like DRK. Please take your false equivalencies and shove them.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]1200-1600 potency worth of healing is ~24k-32k; currently. This sounds like a lot until you look at incoming damage in dungeons, and consider that is spread out over three to four GCDs. Equilibrium heals 24k instantly, and mobs chew through that in seconds. Wall to walls are currently putting out 7.5k-8k DTPS before mobs start to die. That’s a lot, if you had to sustain that level of damage for an entire encounter; it would be one of the hardest Savage fights ever made (if even possible).

My earlier post has never implied that I wanted to change WAR any ways in raid environment. I don't know why you mentioned Savage Fight in your reply. I was solely speaking of dungeons---W2W specifically. That being said, my point still stands: WARs (or any non healers, really) don't need 8s Benediction with 17s downtime.

A WAR can cycle through their cooldowns long enough to use 5 (4 if it's Dead Ends) BWs in those W2W pulls before actually dying without healer's help. This SHOULD NOT be possible. If WARs insists to keep this much of a HPS, what else can be concluded other than "I want to be immortal!!" which ultimately makes you ask: why do you bring a healer? To make sure DF queue pops?

[TheOperator3712]

My earlier post has never implied that I wanted to change WAR any ways in raid environment. I don't know why you mentioned Savage Fight in your reply. I was solely speaking of dungeons---W2W specifically. That being said, my point still stands: WARs (or any non healers, really) don't need 8s Benediction with 17s downtime.

A WAR can cycle through their cooldowns long enough to use 5 (4 if it's Dead Ends) BWs in those W2W pulls before actually dying without healer's help. This SHOULD NOT be possible. If WARs insists to keep this much of a HPS, what else can be concluded other than "I want to be immortal!!" which ultimately makes you ask: why do you bring a healer? To make sure DF queue pops?

I mentioned Savage as a point of comparison. The amount of damage you take in wall to walls is some of the highest damage in the game. I didn't say that BW needs to be where it is now. I said that capping it to a single proc per GCD would absolutely gut WAR's ability to self-heal in dungeons. I also said that the entire tank and healer roles were in need of a complete redesign.

[rawker]

If you will use wall to wall pulls as an argument, i just wish Holy Sheltron, TBN, and Heart of Corundum are invulns every 17 seconds for 8 seconds.

[Eraden]

Mao nots tank and only does little bits healings. Mao mostly is BLMs. Mao askings why tanks get to do almost as much damage as Mao? Tank gets hit by boss, tank shrugs it offs. Mao gets hit by boss, Mao gets obliterateds. Seems to Mao that rights now is no reason to take anything but full party of WARs into fight. Mao seen same thing in GW2. Pallys in GW2 doings LOTS more damage than Elementalists. Is gets so bad that Mao came to FFXIV where Mao could play strong magic user agains. Now same thing happenings all over agains. Mao mights need find another game if this keeps happenings. Mao sad.

[Derio]

Honestly at this point going into a expert dungeon and the tank isnt a WAR then they are pretty much trolling IMO.

We really have to wait until media tour. There are countless other problems like with tanks leveling dungeons where at some levels the lack of mitigation on some tanks feel worse than the others. DRK under lvl 70 is griefing. PLD self sustain is only really at endgame dungeons, anything before that is their single target heal that is a dps loss and before that its nothing.

The question is are they going to gut the tanks self sustain( I doubt) or are they going to homogenize them and give the tanks that are lacking self sustain more and balance their dps equally.