After 1 (arguably 2) expansions what is square trying to achieve with WAR (and PLD)?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Attaching a partial refund to clemency would just create tank freecure

Tanks who think they should be pressing it at 40% HP or so with the excuse “yeah but I get a partial refund for it”

Honestly with how much healing PLD now has on the oGCD clemency should just be deleted

Don't see why we need to delete a button if for the niche it is for it's good and actually usable. Even if we don't give any refund effects, there is minimal reason to delete it when most of PLD's healing is only available at Lv84+.

If the argument is button bloat, we got other memes to look at like current iteration of Cover and Shield Bash. The latter is so utterly bad right now that various Paladin players just don't even put it on the hotbar outside of niche Deep Dungeon situations.

So yeah - Clemency can and should stay. I'd hate to make PLD any more same like the other tanks.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

A good compromise that I can see is that aside from limiting BW to 1 pulse of heal per GCD, make so that using an AoE GCD does more healing than using a single-target GCD.

How about changing the heal potency based on amount of targets hit? 1st target is 400p heal, every subsequent is 100? Would keep single target heals strong, keep AOE heals relevant and avoid the ambiguity with Primal Rend.

[rawker]

Don't see why we need to delete a button if for the niche it is for it's good and actually usable. Even if we don't give any refund effects, there is minimal reason to delete it when most of PLD's healing is only available at Lv84+.

If the argument is button bloat, we got other memes to look at like current iteration of Cover and Shield Bash. The latter is so utterly bad right now that various Paladin players just don't even put it on the hotbar outside of niche Deep Dungeon situations.

So yeah - Clemency can and should stay. I'd hate to make PLD any more same like the other tanks.

Shield Bash and Cover are still redeemable via Traits. I made a quick list of what I would like to see changed on PLD and have included those 2 you have mentioned.

- Fight or Flight is upgraded to Spirit's Within then is upgraded to Expiacion.
- Revert Goring Blade to be a DoT applying combo action from Riot Blade. Combo'ed Goring Blade also gives Divine Might and Sword Oath.
- Rework Circle of Scorn to be a combo action from Total Eclipse that does damage and applies a DoT. Combo'ed Circle of Scorn also gives Divine Might.
- bring back Shield Swipe as magic attacks are now blockable. Allow it to hold up to 3 charges via trait. Blocking an attack lowers the cooldown of Shield Swipe.
- Cover to get a trait where if the PLD receives a total of 50% of its max HP from redirected damage, the PLD gets healed for 1000 potency. Will only proc once per usage of Cover. Cover can also block redirected damage.
- remove damage from Intervene and add 25 oath gauge cost. Lower its cooldown to 5 seconds
- add a trait to Shield Bash where it will get its potency increased after using Intervene and removes the stun effect. Can combo into Riot Blade. Combo'ed Riot Blade from Shield Bash will also give 15 Oath Gauge, in addition to 1000MP.

How about changing the heal potency based on amount of targets hit? 1st target is 400p heal, every subsequent is 100? Would keep single target heals strong, keep AOE heals relevant and avoid the ambiguity with Primal Rend.

This is also good.

[Supersnow845]

How about changing the heal potency based on amount of targets hit? 1st target is 400p heal, every subsequent is 100? Would keep single target heals strong, keep AOE heals relevant and avoid the ambiguity with Primal Rend.

Bloodwhetting should be nerfed to a point that single target or AOE you do not get a full heal out of its duration, that should be the bare minimum of its nerfs

[Aravell]

I don't really understand why WAR absolutely has to keep the healing on every enemy hit when PLD gets only 1 heal per cast and they function in big pulls perfectly fine. The only other tank that has a heal on every enemy hit is DRK, but theirs is a single hit every 60s.

[rawker]

I am fine with the increased healing in AoE situations but what I am not fine with is Nascent Flash

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Shield Bash and Cover are still redeemable via Traits. I made a quick list of what I would like to see changed on PLD and have included those 2 you have mentioned.

Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I am fine with the increased healing in AoE situations but what I am not fine with is Nascent Flash

Lowkey should just halve the healing (or reduce it by 40%, so 400 -> 240) so there is still a benefit to use it over BW, but it isn't so grossly strong in value. Unless you have fights where the mitigation of BW is necessary to live, Nascent is just better.

[rawker]

Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

Precisely. Having recently leveled my BLM to 90, I can't help but marvel at how delicately designed BLM is. How traits upgrade an ability like removing the cast time from Foul to Paradox temporarily replacing Blizzard and Fire if you did your rotations, correctly. It's as if someone from the higher ups like the job and made it a point to designers to give ample attention in designing the job... jk

[Nicola_Kunu]

Which is an inherently flawed idea, making a role something it's not in an attempt to attract people that don't want to actually play it.
Sure, it will get player numbers up in the short term because now all the DPS players will at least try it out, but they're DPS players for a reason and will eventually just return to their chosen role.

And now you're stuck with jobs that appeal to neither the DPS players you tried to cater to, nor the original players of said jobs.

This here is genuinely my biggest worry when something becomes changed, or simplified to be more accessible to others. The chosen path doesn't always feel like it's building on what exists to improve it and retain the same feeling or job identity.
For example, Paladin gaining Holy Might is a positive improvement that retains the core job identity and adds flexibility, Paladin having Goring Blade turned into a 700potency Boring Blade nuke is a negative change as made the ability feel worse and just feels slapped into the rotation.

These types of changes can be attributed not just to tank roles, but Samurai's Kaiten removal, Summoner's lobotimisation, Healer 1-button gameplay, etc.

I understand that the game needs to change to be fresh and exciting or else we might feel the gameplay stagnates, but if the changes upset the core or developed audience of a job, then it runs the risk of not being played anymore - especially if the new audience doesn't latch on.
That being said, Summoner has had their new audience definitely latch on as its one of the most played classes (likely because it's incredibly easy to play, and maybe it sadly fell on the chopping block because they needed an easier class?)

Healers have been lobotimised for a long while into 1 button gameplay and it prevents my desire to try any them out as well. I picked up Astro a long while back because I thought the random card effects sounded cool, but that's been stripped, and as such I have very little desire to play it. It's been made more accessible, but at the cost of interest from players. Scholar gameplay used to have DoT/Poison gameplay, but it no longer exists, so I don't think I will ever bother trying it as the core gameplay is fundamentally a clone of the other 3 healers and there's nothing to uniquely appeal to me.

As a Microsoft Producer speaking about AoE Online, Kevin Perry, once said, "You do, I think in general, annoy your core at your own peril."