Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[OliviaLugria]

If 97% of players dislike a playstyle, any game developer worth their salt will satisfy them and not a tiny minority who seem hell-bent on imposing their will upon others. Suggesting there is some objectively-correct playstyle through a bizarre analogy with celestial mechanics is pure sophistry.

As to the goal being winning, true but only in a sense. People play games to have fun. If winning involves playing in boring matches, I want no part of it. Playing solo on the team with a premade is boring. I'd far prefer to have a 33% win-rate for perpetuity and actually have something meaningful and enjoyable to do than get carried by a premade.

I was trying to explain how your argument uses an ad populum fallacy. Sorry if that did not come across. I'm not certain I would call it objectively-correct, but I could argue that it is the developers' intended style of play.

They may not have crafted each job for FL, but they're aware that:

-you can que as 1-4 players
-you can use the chat
-you can use macros
-you can mark enemies and allies
-you can place markers on the field
-you can open and lock you map
-etc etc

The developers, in theory, are designing the mode with the idea that these things are being used. If they weren't, you'd see a much different gamemode.

I do not remember who said it, but I agree with them. The developers should make what they want. Design with passion and not cater to masses. They have enkigh types od content for it to work. 97% of people don't do ultimates, so should the developers change the design? 90% don't do savage, should they change the design? What fraction of the player base is big on deep dungeons? Should they change it?

As for fun... I try to align my enjoyment with a game (and any activity really) from what it wants to achieve because they are not always trying to achieve "fun." I'm enjoying FL the most when I win because the goal is winning. I understand that's. It something everyone can do. I don't understand your reasoning because I find the interactions I have in FL very meaningful and enjoyable.

[Mawlzy]

The developers, in theory, are designing the mode with the idea that these things are being used. If they weren't, you'd see a much different gamemode.

I do not remember who said it, but I agree with them. The developers should make what they want. Design with passion and not cater to masses. They have enkigh types od content for it to work. 97% of people don't do ultimates, so should the developers change the design? 90% don't do savage, should they change the design? What fraction of the player base is big on deep dungeons? Should they change it?

Is not one purpose of these boards for players to express their opinions in the hope the developers might listen and "develop" the game to a more pleasing state?

97% of players don't do ultimates. So are you suggesting the 97% of players who don't want to play in a premade should just leave FL? Because otherwise your argument makes no sense. I'm all for niche content. More options are better. That's completely different from ignoring the vast majority of players who are currently playing a mode. We're not talking about the X% of the player base who don't play FL. We're talking about 97% of the current population that does play FL.

I've told you before I understand why you run a premade and advocate for others joining the cult. It is, indeed, the most effective way of boosting win-rate. I've outlined why I believe this works against the very goal you purport to be seeking in a higher skill floor. But that's not what this argument is about.

Nowhere is it written on stone tablets that FL must allow light parties. In principle, the queue could be solo only, light party, full party or complete 24-person alliance. The key debate here is which is the best option. We've reached different conclusions on that point, but since I can think of no way to determine the "correct" maximum party size, I don't think it's unreasonable to default to how people actually play the mode. Which is around 97% solo.

[Scintilla]

snip

All of which would be ideal and make a very good team. I agree that everyone doing this would make for a highly enjoyable and challenging FL. It can arguably be done with a premade (on a smaller extent), but that doesn't remotely create a 'highly enjoyable or challenging FL' - it just results in one team completely and repeatedly destroying the others, which in turn, pushes more and more players away from FLs and makes that dream of improving player standards and ability in FL less and less likely to happen.


I don't wish for a solo queue, personally, I would prefer it if that wasn't the solution. PvP can be quite daunting to some new players, not least because it sadly has a reputation for being a more toxic and competitive area of many multiplayer games. Some new players might be more willing to join if they could go with a friend or FC member for support.


The evidence they see (over and over and over again) is that coordinated premade teams win by a large margin with their opponents being able to do little to nothing about it.

They see that solo players/random teams lose repeatedly, despite their best efforts.

They see that they themselves are unable to make a difference in stopping premade teams, everything they try doesn't seem to work, and they have no effect on the outcome of the game.


Perhaps it's your own drive to master FLs which gives a slightly tainted perspective. They don't look at technique - how can they? They're dead in seconds before many of them even noticed the danger incoming. These are new or infrequent players.

Those more experienced players who do recognise the danger early and are more aware of the techniques, either managed to escape or got caught via stun/bottleneck/delay etc. (and with a RPR in the premade that means death, Guard or not). If they escaped, great. Now they're alone and able to do nothing solo vs a full BH5 team anyway.
I'm not saying 'go easy on them'. As I said: offer to command, lead the team to a win, demonstrate your success, give advice/teaching wherever you can, encourage them if they want to try commanding or just a new class. Still play a good game, but do it in a way which is common/accessible play to all, by commanding the random alliance - not via a premade which requires friendship-links with frequent FLers and a microphone...
To repeatedly crush them, over and over and over again, using such advantages (experienced friends, voice chat etc.) will only push more and more players away as they lose hope.

This isn't necessarily directed at you, but at premades in general.

[OliviaLugria]

The developers should make what they\\'re passionate about, and use feedback to refine those ideas. I don\\'t feel like this is happening. I think they\\'re catering to people first and trying to design around that catering.

I feel the need to lightly remind you that your "97%" is a completly baseless number. Even if it were true, how many of those people\\'s opinions should actively be cared about? Should developers care about bots? Afkers? Feeders? People only there for exp? People with grayed out bars? If you took FL off the roulette it\\'d pop as often as rival wings does... basically never. I\\'m glad it\\'s there because it\\'s a mode I greatly enjoy.

You keep harping on about me suggesting to premade. This snippet is the only part that even mentions them:

"Frontlines allows you to que as a light party. I always recommend partying up with fellow pvpers.This ensures you have people that listen to calls, are fairly competent players, or at the very least are fun to play with. While you can always simply play what you want here are some sample team comps that synergize well with each other."

My guide is not for premades. It is for everyone. Anyone can put a macro on and ask for someone to play dark, reaper, or Dragoon. I am not suggesting premades do this strategy. I am suggesting everyone takes part. I personally recommend playing in a premade because a vast majority (let\\'s say 97%) can\\'t be bothered to tell others their LB is up, salted earth is off cd, a pinch is incoming, or a new node has spawned.

Make it solo of you want. I don\\'t really care, but it won\\'t fix your issue. Your issue, which has been stated multiple times, is that layering lbs is to effective. You don\\'t need a premade for this. I laid out how to do it. It doesn\\'t require pinpoint precision and God like apm and situational awareness. It requires at least 4 people willing to say something in chat. Making all those premades go solo is just changing premade parties every match with others.

[Mawlzy]

Make it solo of you want. I don\\'t really care, but it won\\'t fix your issue. Your issue, which has been stated multiple times, is that layering lbs is to effective. You don\\'t need a premade for this. I laid out how to do it. It doesn\\'t require pinpoint precision and God like apm and situational awareness. It requires at least 4 people willing to say something in chat. Making all those premades go solo is just changing premade parties every match with others.

Please don't tell me what "my issue" is. I'm pretty sure I'm going to know that better than you, particularly when your further rationalization is honestly laughable. Premades are different to solo players who coordinate. That's presumably why you play in a premade and have a 55% win-rate? When I play in games without a premade I have a far more enjoyable time that when a premade is present. That is my personal experience. Telling me I'm wrong is rude. Further transgressions of this nature and I'm going to start giving you fashion advice.

[OliviaLugria]

The power of a premade comes from the specific combination of jobs (as described explicitly in your own guide), and the fact that LB coordination in FL is devastating

Have I misquoted you? Apologies if so. I will reiterate that a solo que would do very little to fix good players coordinating and stomping bad players.

I don't think you could diss a maid outfit, but you're welcome to have a go at it.

[OliviaLugria]

For the other things, as I said, if I could get a good dark following up, a guard break that calls out there ready, and a dps who knows their burst then I wouldn't really need a team. I still would because they're genuinely nice people I like hanging out with, but I wouldn't need one to have a high chance of success.

I'm gonna also note that my calls drastically improved after meeting deneb, switched to Dark, put a marker on my head, and started getting everyone following me around.

[Mawlzy]

Have I misquoted you? Apologies if so. I will reiterate that a solo que would do very little to fix good players coordinating and stomping bad players.

I don't think you could diss a maid outfit, but you're welcome to have a go at it.

And you know better than most that the application of that power is far easier and more effective with a premade than with randos!!! Why else would your win-rate rocket from 40% to 55%? C'mon.

You've certainly made the maid-outfit look your own, but it's not affixed with glue. And the aesthetician is only 2,000 gil. You have a spring complexion and fall hair, sugar.

[AnotherPerson]

And you know better than most that the application of that power is far easier and more effective with a premade than with randos!!! Why else would your win-rate rocket from 40% to 55%? C'mon.

Isn't that only because random players aren't necessarily receptive to working together? See: Sandbaggers and people who give up instantly. Also randos can be new or just don't care about the game mode and want exp. Hence the chances of getting randoms who is receptive to working together is lower.

That's not something premades can't have. Premades are essentially just 4 players who are more receptive to playing together and working together. It's nothing to do with skill levels. There's plenty of terrible premades out there, but they tend to go unnoticed because they barely have an impact compared to your regular solo players.

The only premades that tend to stand out are ones who have higher skill levels or work together to develop a particular strategy. If they are a problem, then it means you simply don't like players who are skilled and working together -- which is .. an odd take considering winning in Frontlines wants people to be coordinating together. There isn't necessarily an in-game advantage premades get that solo players don't have. Solo players can do the exact same thing if they really wanted to, but they don't because they're not as receptive to the concept. This problem isn't really an issue in JP because people are particularly receptive to working together. It's more of a mentality issue in NA and EU.

[Mawlzy]

snip

Let's break down those points.

You claim I "simply don't like players who are skilled and working together." This is completely untrue and to suggest it has put you on my fashion advice list. It's an absurd assumption that doesn't follow from anything I've said. I would love to see more cooperation between random players, and I agree it can (and should) occur. My primary complaints about (good) premades, which I've repeated ad nauseum at this point, are:1. I find them extremely dull to play with, and often oppressive to play against, largely because... 2. They encourage defeatism among many players who don't cooperate at all and become little more than someone riding a horse watching others PvP. The second point can be debated, I guess. The first can't because that is my experience of the game. My enjoyment is reduced by the presence of premades.

You claim that solo players can do "the exact same thing" that a premade can. I'll accept that you believe this, but I genuinely cannot understand how anyone could reach this conclusion.

Let's take voice out of the equation for a moment (although it's clear many Discord-based premades use it). How might my experience as the leader of a premade differ from playing solo and trying to emulate a premade?

A premade can:

1. Fix the comp pregame for a classic stack and likely play those individual roles repeatedly, thereby learning the cadence and style of their party members.
2. Discuss more granular strategies than simply "follow the DRK dive, then break guard, deal damage..." as per the jobs each are playing.
3. Not only alert their party members of LB and CD status, but discuss pregame the time management of same.
4. Agree the details of the burst. (I dutifully mark DRKs and trail around after them as WAR. The details of the dive vary between DRKs; pre-dive pause and positioning; location of central target, and so on.)
5. ... Since I've never played in a premade I imagine I'm missing other advantages. Where's that maid?

You'll hopefully notice that some of the points I've already listed cannot be done with pugs, but let's look in more detail at how I might mimic a premade when solo queueing.

First, it's probably easier if I play as DRK. This is already a major concession, I don't play DRK. But "win at all costs," right? Okay, I'll play DRK.

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