Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[OliviaLugria]

I presume the list was in response to your "Why else would your win-rate rocket" question.

On a different note, the lack of any kind of progressive discussion in this thread is almost laughable, with the same points being repeated endlessly.

Thank you for pointing that out. I thought including the quote would be enough.

I think discussion on any forum is a tall ask. People on the internet will try anything but talking to someone genuinely. You can't even get someone to explain their position in one post when asked. ;-;

Pretty much agree with you about the leeches. I would add that there is a major effort-time ratio involved.

As for premades, At least some only want to play with friends and others only want to see others lose. It's not some major point. winning is very important to many of them, including myself.

I'm also going to reiterate that while some do use voice, a majority do not. On aether, there are several cwls that people gather up parties with and just use chat. The static party of 4 hyper coordinating in voice is the execption not the rule.

I wanted to expand on (capable/willing to bring about cooperation). Being incapable of is as much as the team's fault as any commander. I.e. I can tell people what jobs are good, when to attack/leave, what objectives to cap; it means nothing if the team doesn't follow.

Being unwilling to coordinate with randoms has its own set of problems. Many leaches react negatively, threatening reports. You take on a lot of responsibility by trying to lead your team, and it's complicated when you first start. I currently use around 32 macros for calls on top of targeting, waymarks, and job actions. It is dreadfully easier to get 3 others who don't need calls and use mob mentality to support you. Less power usually, but you avoid getting flamed. (I'm not saying you need all those macros to be effective, but if I don't express my exact intentions clearly and quickly people won't follow.)

As to why you would "force" this style of play onto others... PVP is a competition. Competition breeds innovation as well as a desire to win. It should be natural to adopt better strategies that increase your chances of winning. NA/EU are simply behind.

Everyone on JP knows how to spread out for dark pulls, guard drg dives, burst on dark salted earth's. They understand pinching and baiting maneuvers and if there is a caller will do their best to listen. Any average premade is no better than the average solo player. Even the top groups rock about a 40%.

The issue we have right now (and why I think FL sucks calling back to this thread's namesake) is the speed at which people are improving is far to slow. The "will to win" isn't enough incentive for the average player to improve. They have a choice between acting like a premade and acting like leeches, and for most, that answer is obvious.

[Mawlzy]

The issue we have right now (and why I think FL sucks calling back to this thread's namesake) is the speed at which people are improving is far to slow. The "will to win" isn't enough incentive for the average player to improve. They have a choice between acting like a premade and acting like leeches, and for most, that answer is obvious.

Maybe the responses I've made on multiple occasions to this point is what I have failed to communicate clearly, and should have been my closing tl;dr on the topic.

Through your training programs at your FL Commander FC and Discord, you will improve the skill level of a handful of people who wish to emulate your style and enjoy your win-rate. I can see from your point of view why that's appealing, albeit short-sighted; from mine it is disastrous.

I'm not too sure who made you arbiter of the correct speed at which FL skill should be improving, but I'd suggest it's not improving at all. And the more you push your agenda, the worse that situation is likely to become. I and others have presented reasons to you why your playstyle decreases the average skill level. For the last time: the elimination of player agency that your playstyle creates increases despondency in the less skilled and drives away the more skilled out of tedium. You eliminate the "will to win" in those who once had it, because will without a way is a neutered desire.

[OliviaLugria]

Can you agree that if more players were better, premades would be less of a problem?

[Mawlzy]

Can you agree that if more players were better, premades would be less of a problem?

Yes, absolutely.

[JuicyHeals]

Until Square Enix completely revamps frontline in a way that can get people to play without the need of tomes or the massive xp bonus the rate people will improve will be neglible I suspect for years.

Fact is I enjoy pvping but I have to accept that I'm part of a small minority that does enjoy it, perhaps it's different on JP centers but the vast majority on crystal at least seem to be of the "get in get out" mentality that while I hate, there nothing I can do about

[OliviaLugria]

Yes, absolutely.

Can you agree that currently, average people's skill level is not enough to combat premades?

[Mawlzy]

Can you agree that currently, average people's skill level is not enough to combat premades?

We seem to be slipping into repetition again, but yes, agreed. Although it begs the question of why they should have to.

[OliviaLugria]

So, is it not reasonable to say: the faster the average player improves, the faster premades are less of a problem?

[Mawlzy]

So, is it not reasonable to say: the faster the average player improves, the faster premades are less of a problem?

Yes. Maybe we could move forward to the point where you clap your hands together doing the tail swish thing and announce "Gotcha!"

[Mistress_Irika]

Right, the problem isn't new.

I'm interested in whether people think 24v24v24 is the ideal size for FL given current skillsets. I suspect it's okay on the new Shatter since the amount of ground that needs to be covered during the small ice phase likely works better with a lot of people. But for the other two maps my guess is 16v16v16 would be more enjoyable. Fewer players might even maintain current queue times while reducing rewards, which as others have noted has some hope of separating the wheat from the chaff.

I can certainly agree with that. I'm pretty certain that games would go on a bit longer if the size was reduced. As for rewards, well...that depends on how much value the community is putting on the rewards. That part is going to have to be discussed.

So, is it not reasonable to say: the faster the average player improves, the faster premades are less of a problem?

My apologies for butting in. I know you mean well. If I hadn't quit maybe I would be seeking you out for games.
Anyways, people need to be given a reason for improving. If experience points and battle pass rewards is all that is driving most to play pvp then most people aren't going to care about how they play. I mean, pvp has been remade to where it's even easier to play, and that option of just playing for rewards without having to put in as much work is still the optimal work to play. Combine this with the casuals being hyper focused on objectives, and I can pretty much argue that playing pvp for experience points takes way less effort than playing dungeons, trials and roulettes. This type of gameplay style is relaxing to some. As long as there is no value on the in game stats themselves many won't care for improving in general. Just saying.