Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Mawlzy]

When everyone is a premade, no one is. In all seriousness, it doesn't take much for a solo player to go from underperforming to decent to above average. There's just no reason to do so right now.

A premade's strength comes from a willingness to work together and perform well. Instilling this in the average player would quickly allow them to catch up.

I think premade vs premade would just be a dead que, and solo only inspires more mediocrity.

That's 50% nonsense and you know it. Members of a semi-static premade will of course have a willingness to work together, otherwise the premade would never have formed! And anyone with that level of organization and commitment isn't going to go to all that trouble then stink up the place. The power of a premade comes from the specific combination of jobs (as described explicitly in your own guide), and the fact that LB coordination in FL is devastating.

You don't instill these principles in the average player by curb-stomping them, you instill cynicism and defeatism in all but the handful that choose to form their own premade, thereby deepening the current crisis.

[OliviaLugria]

Part of performing well and working together is choosing a job that performs well.

Would I rather all the jobs be equally viable. Sure, but until that happens I think finding a job that suits you and viable in the meta is the best option.

[Scintilla]

snip

By all means, encourage the raising of the skill floor for players in PvP; whether it be through general PvP or FL-specific linkshells or large online groups in which new players can join and get advice from veteran PvP players, or through NN, or other guides.

But I am adamant that premades are not the way to do this. For the most part, I have seen it have very much the opposite effect, with such premade teams pushing players away from FLs and inciting a defeatist 'why bother? Just end it fast' approach which is already an existing issue.
Yes, take a prominent commanding role, do well within FLs, inspire others in your success, and emphasise their ability to achieve the same success with practice.

But to repeatedly crush them under heel? To utilise advantages such as voice chat and a coordinated premade team to obliterate opponents to the point that there is very, very little that they can do (aside from a full game of 2v1 or premade formation of their own)? To render your other alliance members meaningless, only there to fight over the scraps that remain?
They will ultimately come to the conclusion that FL is not for solo players and that they have no influence upon the outcome, unable to compete without a coordinated premade of their own. A few very competitive players might be driven by that desire to make life hard for the premade and force them into a loss, but many players will not. It will push a larger proportion into a defeatist attitude of 'who cares? They will win, we can't do anything. Let's just end it and get out'.
This isn't particularly helped by the toxic and arrogant approach that many premade teams seem to quickly develop, in which beginner players who may want to give a try/get practice at commanding etc. instantly get shut down with "I have a huge win rate, you don't, so shut up". That isn't promoting learning whatsoever, it's just arrogance.

All in all, yes, you can push for better. But push too hard and you're doing the opposite

[Mawlzy]

Part of performing well and working together is choosing a job that performs well.

Would I rather all the jobs be equally viable. Sure, but until that happens I think finding a job that suits you and viable in the meta is the best option.

Agreed, but I don't see the relevance. Besides, a premade completely changes the relative value of jobs compared to solo. Job selection is based almost entirely on LB coordination. As I said, this is explicitly stated in your guide. One advantage of playing solo is it makes far more jobs viable.

What is your ultimate goal here? How many premades do you want to see in a typical match? And is there any number of solo players telling you they find playing in matches with a premade to be tedious that might sway you from this messianic mission?

Currently on Aether, would you agree about half the matches contain one premade? If so, that suggests the number of players adopting that playstyle (weighted for volume) is less than 3% of the population. Why should such a tiny fraction of players dictate how the mode is played, particularly when it directly conflicts with the wishes of the majority?

[Mawlzy]

This isn't particularly helped by the toxic and arrogant approach that many premade teams seem to quickly develop, in which beginner players who may want to give a try/get practice at commanding etc. instantly get shut down with "I have a huge win rate, you don't, so shut up". That isn't promoting learning whatsoever, it's just arrogance.

I completely agree with your entire post, but since I've been accused of jabbing at Olivia (only when playing DRG, honest, bdum tsssk), I feel I should mention the following in the context of the quote above.

While I had to blacklist Olivia due to noise overload, before that she was mostly polite. I recall one occasion when she said something snotty and then one of her premade comrades chimed in with something worse, so I just left. But that was very much an exception.

[Divinemights]

After long 5 pages of debate and we basically still reach the conclusion that there is no resolution for this Ouroboros relationship.

[OliviaLugria]

I don't really care about how many premades are in a match. I want people to coordinate.

I want darks having salt timers and countdowns for when they pull.

I want dancers, warriors and reapers alerting their LBs are ready.

I want the burst jobs to be right behind them ready to go.

I want the Monks, ninjas, and white mages locking down key targets.

People locking their full map open and watching their behinds for pinches.

Tbh, I can't relate to how many people are actually giving up and being defeatist on aether. I can say that those people have probably been on my team, seen my macros, and could do these exact things with or without a premade to similar effect. I don't use voice, I don't use anything outside the game.

Even if you somehow get your wish for a pure solo que. Your complaint will simply change from "the team with the premade" to "the team most willing to act like one."

I don't understand your point about majorities. If 99% of people thought the sun orbits the earth, it doesn't make it true (this is also true in reverse.) It is evidance that dictates truth, and it should be evident that the way premades play is superior for achieving the intended goal of FL (winning.)

It's not like premades are abusing mechanics the designers didn't intend. PVP has always been centered around burst. In feast, in old FL, in CC, and in the current FL. You could perhaps argue it has never been as easy as it is now, but I'm not sure I'd agree.

In any case, it is the mechanics of a game that dicate how it should be played, not the players. The players will need to discover and learn how to utilize those mechanics, but they are going to be there regardless of if players buy into them or not.

[Bonoki]

It sounds like to me what some are looking for is "Ranked Frontlines with rewards" without directly saying it. I guess something like the Crystal Conflict's Bronze - Crystal system could work in Frontlines, albeit not without its flaws.

[OliviaLugria]

Funnily enough, it's already ranked.

[Mawlzy]

I don't understand your point about majorities. If 99% of people thought the sun orbits the earth, it doesn't make it true (this is also true in reverse.) It is evidance that dictates truth, and it should be evident that the way premades play is superior for achieving the intended goal of FL (winning.)

If 97% of players dislike a playstyle, any game developer worth their salt will satisfy them and not a tiny minority who seem hell-bent on imposing their will upon others. Suggesting there is some objectively-correct playstyle through a bizarre analogy with celestial mechanics is pure sophistry.

As to the goal being winning, true but only in a sense. People play games to have fun. If winning involves playing in boring matches, I want no part of it. Playing solo on the team with a premade is boring. I'd far prefer to have a 33% win-rate for perpetuity and actually have something meaningful and enjoyable to do than get carried by a premade.