DT Relic Proposal

[VerdeLuck]

Except Exploratory Zones have been the most engaged with content they've ever released. They didn't pause it this expansion due to it being unpopular but rather because they wanted to try other ideas much in the same way they paused Deep Dungeon in Shadowbringers. Were their people such as yourself who disliked it? Sure. The forums certainly wasn't quiet with complaints. Now you're seeing everyone who liked Eureak and Bozja upset because their content suddenly got removed and the replacement was "do the chores you were already doing."

And people call it a "charity weapon" because it essentially is. There's neither an effort nor journey in obtaining the relics any more. They aren't special weapons you build towards throughout the expansion but a glow stick you get doing the same chores you were already going to do anyway. What especially upsets a lot of people is we already had weapons you could passive earn. Actual Tome weapons were that casual grind upgrade everyone could partake. Then you have crafted weapons and Primal ones if you're feeling like getting your feet wet in harder content. Instead, we lost content in Exploratory Zones so the relics can become an even easier tome weapon while those of us who like grinding now have nothing to do as earning said relic is laughably easy.

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

[OgruMogru]

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

If you're seeing lots of people agreeing that EW relic was insufficient then perhaps it is not as unpopular an opinion as you *want* it to be. Why are you so pressed over them being called charity weapons? Plenty of people in this thread have pointed out that it's not just the grind being removed that is the issue, it's also the setting, the context, the extra goodies, the story, the lore. This is all stuff people look forward to and it's all been removed so anything that we get in it's place will always feel inadequate. 1500 tomes every 4 months is a joke. The charity weapon is the punchline.

[StarRosie]

By the time it's bis, the game is dead anyway

In all honesty, this has been one of my regular issues with all the relics. And oh boy, this is going to lead into a hot take.

FFXIV relic weapons until the final step are routinely weaker than multiple other options. Save for HW where the relic was as powerful as the tome weapon at the time. Currently the Augmented Diadochos, the limited tome weapon, the upgraded limited tome weapon, the SUPER upgraded limited tome weapon, Savage, and Zeromus EX weapons are all stronger than the current relic. Which...ya know, for how the current relic is acquired, fine. That's fair. I overall enjoy relic grinds, I VASTLY prefer the HW Anima grind over Eureka and Bozja. And while books are the single most tedious relic step to ever exist, I also prefer the ARR style. But for how long the grinds can be for each step, they do not feel like they actively respect and reward the player's time enough. If we go back to the grindy relics, then they need to be stronger at every step, not just the final step, to respect people's time. I would settle for them being as powerful as the tome weapon (Preferably augmented tome). But overall I would prefer they be as strong as the current tier savage weapon. Will this piss off savage raiders? Absolutely. I don't care though. If I go through something like say, the first one time grind for Bozja's relic, then the grind for the step that grind unlocks (5 runs of DR.), only to receive a weapon weaker than multiple options at that time? That feels like the game spitting in my face. Because, lets be real here, the one time grinds for the bozja relics were miserable affairs and even SE acknowledges this because they nerfed BOTH of them within the week they released!

Ramble aside, I overall just believe the relic steps need to be stronger if they are going to also be long grinds at each step.

[Saraide]

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

Any and all discussion was had when we got the first EW relic step. This exact thread has existed twice every patch since.

[DrWho2010]

How about they make the relic customizable, so you can choose between different hilts, gemstones, glows. Like 4 options per customizable section and make them a decent grind, that way people will be highly incentivized and satisfied to work towards them. And not all will look the same...

You've just quadrupled the amount of work the weapon designers need to do then.

[StarRosie]

OK, just going to preface a lot of what I'm about to say with, I don't particularly like the current relic grind. But I also just kinda do it cause like I said in my previous post, I would prefer if relics respected the time put into them and despite being super easy...these ones do respect the time it takes to get 1500 tomes. They are sufficiently strong enough for how easy they are to get.

I also don't normally like or want to play devil's advocate, so I ask folks don't shove words I'm not saying down my throat here. But...

Any and all discussion was had when we got the first EW relic step.

Has it? I lurk A LOT, don't post often because at this point the forums just feel like a lost cause, but they're good for a laugh. But whenever I've seen this topic come up, I see two sides being extremely bullheaded and refusing to budge in any manner, while some TRY to think of a compromise, only for the bullheaded ones to shout those people down. But it always feels the "We want ultra grindy relics!" side is refusing to accept anything other then another Bozja. Nothing else. Even when the idea of a HW style grind is proposed, that is shouted down by "I SAID BOZJA! NOTHING ELSE!" Or when someone made a point that they COULD do another bozja style relic but improve upon the alternate methods to upgrade the relic that they did for the bozja relic, for those who don't really want to participate in the Exploratory Zone because it doesn't appeal to them. That too was shouted down. It was also overall botched by SE, but more on that later.

Meanwhile, you have those in favor of the current relic also being stubborn in trying to look at the situation from the others' perspective. Likely because maybe they did the Anima relic back in HW and liked that, only for Eureka and Bozja to be something they don't like and the EW is the first relic they've gotten in a while. So the idea of going BACK to the exploratory zone style is unappealing to them. So they stubbornly pushback against that idea. Or they are someone who doesn't have a ton of time to do a long grind, so the current style lets them have something they've never had before. There are possibilities to explain it all.

Speaking from my own personal tastes. I don't like the current "fork over some tomes" style we have now. But I also really do not like the Exploratory Zone style either. I wish we could have another one like HW or ARR. Or have a relic tied to an Exploratory Zone BUT also have an alternate HW style grind. Which seemed to be a thing they were trying to do in Bozja, each relic step had "Do thing in Bozja for parts you need" or "Do thing not in Bozja for parts you need." but this was compromised by the relic steps being hard tied to the Bozja storyline. So even though there were options for people who didn't want to do Bozja either because it doesn't appeal to them, the content style is too tedious for them, or they just do not like the story for Bozja, they still ultimately had to do Bozja. Which often created other frustrations.

I think there is still room for a discussion to be had, room for compromises to be had. No, this doesn't mean we should allow a "Just fork over some tomes." option alongside a Bozja style or HW style. Then everyone will do that because humans default/drift to the easiest option by nature. But...there IS middle ground being ignored in favor of "My way or the highway." in my honest opinion.

OK, ramble over.

[DrWho2010]

you just can't have two completely separate methods to obtain the same thing. it has to be one method. otherwise you have to program for switching pathways possibilities and that may not be ideal or feasible given dev time restraints and resource allocation. plus you're creating more work that would be a split in how the playerbase actually consumes it. which for the number crunchers would be a complete waste of money most likely.

[StarRosie]

you just can't have two completely separate methods to obtain the same thing. it has to be one method. otherwise you have to program for switching pathways possibilities and that may not be ideal or feasible given dev time restraints and resource allocation. plus you're creating more work that would be a split in how the playerbase actually consumes it. which for the number crunchers would be a complete waste of money most likely.

Separate and alternate are two entirely different things. Like said before, they provided alternate objectives for each step of the relic in Bozja. Obviously as an alternative option for those who don't like the exploratory content. The issue was that they completely undercut the alternate options by having the steps be hard tied to Bozja's storyline. They could've easily had the steps be detached from the story while still encouraging the story for those invested. A good example would be with the first step that hard requires you to participate in Bozja, Change of Arms, the quest for the Law's Order upgrade. It requires 15 Loathsome Memory of the Dying, you get 5 from CLL and 1 from completing a Crystal Tower raid. Could easily have Gerolt say that you can find these in or around the Crystal Tower (Cause canonically Syrcus Tower is closed up. So an 'around' note helps take care of that. Nevermind, Change of Arms was 5.45. So Syrcus would be reopened by then.) but then have Zlatan mention that reports say the imperials have stores of these in CLL. So it may be quicker going that way. It allows either option without hard tying the step to the story. Which overall would've required little change. Buuuuut...we also don't know the full extent of the devs' time and budget. So, this is all just guesstimation on my part.

Also you can have two or more completely separate methods to obtain the same thing. We have several examples of that in game. Specifically upgrading things like limited tome gear. Either you do savage and get the upgrade items there, or you run the three Alliance Raids and trade the coins in for the same item, or you do hunts and trade Sacks of Nuts in for the same item. All lead to the same thing, upgrading the tome gear. But they are vastly varied methods. Or farming light for things like the ARR and HW relics. Or how you get Alexandrite for the Materia part of the ARR relic. Or the Unidentifiable items for the HW relic. Or Crystal sand for HW relic. These all have alternate methods of acquisition that all ultimately lead to the same step ending.

[Musashidon]

I think there is still room for a discussion to be had, room for compromises to be had. No, this doesn't mean we should allow a "Just fork over some tomes." option alongside a Bozja style or HW style. Then everyone will do that because humans default/drift to the easiest option by nature. But...there IS middle ground being ignored in favor of "My way or the highway." in my honest opinion.

i mean that is the best of both worlds sure people will go the tomes route but that's the point people who say they want a grind can do it and those who just want the weapon can too.

even if most people default to tomes everyone is happy. well except the group that wants everyone to do the grind.

[AmiableApkallu]

(Background: I started when post-ShB was current.)

I think what I like about relic "grinds" is the variety of content that I'm required to do, so long as there's an option that I don't mind terribly.

I've found a certain sort of amusement in:

• The ARR and HW relics, where more than a few steps were clearly designed to funnel people into certain content, presumably to keep queues populated and all that.
• The ShB relics, because Lost Actions are fun to play around with.

I dislike, for "practical reasons":

• How Delubrum Reginae isn't in Duty Finder, because I don't want to run PotD for Timeworn Artifacts.

I dislike, for lack of variety:

• How Endwalker is only "turn in 1500 uncapped tomestones."
• How Eureka seems to be only "grind FATEs with people." (I've only completed the first two zones, though, so maybe there's something more, later?)