DT Relic Proposal

[VerdeLuck]

Except Exploratory Zones have been the most engaged with content they've ever released. They didn't pause it this expansion due to it being unpopular but rather because they wanted to try other ideas much in the same way they paused Deep Dungeon in Shadowbringers. Were their people such as yourself who disliked it? Sure. The forums certainly wasn't quiet with complaints. Now you're seeing everyone who liked Eureak and Bozja upset because their content suddenly got removed and the replacement was "do the chores you were already doing."

And people call it a "charity weapon" because it essentially is. There's neither an effort nor journey in obtaining the relics any more. They aren't special weapons you build towards throughout the expansion but a glow stick you get doing the same chores you were already going to do anyway. What especially upsets a lot of people is we already had weapons you could passive earn. Actual Tome weapons were that casual grind upgrade everyone could partake. Then you have crafted weapons and Primal ones if you're feeling like getting your feet wet in harder content. Instead, we lost content in Exploratory Zones so the relics can become an even easier tome weapon while those of us who like grinding now have nothing to do as earning said relic is laughably easy.

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

[OgruMogru]

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

If you're seeing lots of people agreeing that EW relic was insufficient then perhaps it is not as unpopular an opinion as you *want* it to be. Why are you so pressed over them being called charity weapons? Plenty of people in this thread have pointed out that it's not just the grind being removed that is the issue, it's also the setting, the context, the extra goodies, the story, the lore. This is all stuff people look forward to and it's all been removed so anything that we get in it's place will always feel inadequate. 1500 tomes every 4 months is a joke. The charity weapon is the punchline.

[Saraide]

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

Any and all discussion was had when we got the first EW relic step. This exact thread has existed twice every patch since.

[StarRosie]

OK, just going to preface a lot of what I'm about to say with, I don't particularly like the current relic grind. But I also just kinda do it cause like I said in my previous post, I would prefer if relics respected the time put into them and despite being super easy...these ones do respect the time it takes to get 1500 tomes. They are sufficiently strong enough for how easy they are to get.

I also don't normally like or want to play devil's advocate, so I ask folks don't shove words I'm not saying down my throat here. But...

Any and all discussion was had when we got the first EW relic step.

Has it? I lurk A LOT, don't post often because at this point the forums just feel like a lost cause, but they're good for a laugh. But whenever I've seen this topic come up, I see two sides being extremely bullheaded and refusing to budge in any manner, while some TRY to think of a compromise, only for the bullheaded ones to shout those people down. But it always feels the "We want ultra grindy relics!" side is refusing to accept anything other then another Bozja. Nothing else. Even when the idea of a HW style grind is proposed, that is shouted down by "I SAID BOZJA! NOTHING ELSE!" Or when someone made a point that they COULD do another bozja style relic but improve upon the alternate methods to upgrade the relic that they did for the bozja relic, for those who don't really want to participate in the Exploratory Zone because it doesn't appeal to them. That too was shouted down. It was also overall botched by SE, but more on that later.

Meanwhile, you have those in favor of the current relic also being stubborn in trying to look at the situation from the others' perspective. Likely because maybe they did the Anima relic back in HW and liked that, only for Eureka and Bozja to be something they don't like and the EW is the first relic they've gotten in a while. So the idea of going BACK to the exploratory zone style is unappealing to them. So they stubbornly pushback against that idea. Or they are someone who doesn't have a ton of time to do a long grind, so the current style lets them have something they've never had before. There are possibilities to explain it all.

Speaking from my own personal tastes. I don't like the current "fork over some tomes" style we have now. But I also really do not like the Exploratory Zone style either. I wish we could have another one like HW or ARR. Or have a relic tied to an Exploratory Zone BUT also have an alternate HW style grind. Which seemed to be a thing they were trying to do in Bozja, each relic step had "Do thing in Bozja for parts you need" or "Do thing not in Bozja for parts you need." but this was compromised by the relic steps being hard tied to the Bozja storyline. So even though there were options for people who didn't want to do Bozja either because it doesn't appeal to them, the content style is too tedious for them, or they just do not like the story for Bozja, they still ultimately had to do Bozja. Which often created other frustrations.

I think there is still room for a discussion to be had, room for compromises to be had. No, this doesn't mean we should allow a "Just fork over some tomes." option alongside a Bozja style or HW style. Then everyone will do that because humans default/drift to the easiest option by nature. But...there IS middle ground being ignored in favor of "My way or the highway." in my honest opinion.

OK, ramble over.

[Musashidon]

I think there is still room for a discussion to be had, room for compromises to be had. No, this doesn't mean we should allow a "Just fork over some tomes." option alongside a Bozja style or HW style. Then everyone will do that because humans default/drift to the easiest option by nature. But...there IS middle ground being ignored in favor of "My way or the highway." in my honest opinion.

i mean that is the best of both worlds sure people will go the tomes route but that's the point people who say they want a grind can do it and those who just want the weapon can too.

even if most people default to tomes everyone is happy. well except the group that wants everyone to do the grind.

[StarRosie]

i mean that is the best of both worlds sure people will go the tomes route but that's the point people who say they want a grind can do it and those who just want the weapon can too.

even if most people default to tomes everyone is happy. well except the group that wants everyone to do the grind.

I mean, fair. I was letting my own thoughts get in the way there. But overall I just think it is a discussion with plenty of room to talk, if folks stop planting their feet the whole time...but, eh.

[NekoMataMata]

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

You started the whole discussion in bad faith. Literally go back to page 1:

Yeah it's pretty nice this time around for not forcing you to do either extremely tedious content (ARR/HW) or do Exploratory Zones you don't want to be in (SB/SHB).
I've posted about it on here before but having it earned through the grinding you're already doing in other content is great and freeing, I don't feel like I'm shoehorned into content I don't want to be in. I can go grind whatever content I want and still make progress without having some arbitrary "do 100 fates" or "clear each normal raid series 60 times" kind of tasks that just drag things out for no reason. And I don't have to deal with zones like Bozja and Eureka that die out very quickly.

It's feels good honestly given how bad a lot of relics were in the past.

Most of this is purely your opinion, with a bit of misinformation sprinkled in. For instance, Bozja didn't actually require you to work on the relic purely in Bozja. The ShB relics offered an alternative(s) for each step, and there's only one step where the alternative is really unreasonable.

But then we look at the rest of your post. You don't like fates, you don't like normal raids, you don't like grinding in general. You want to compromise? Maybe try being open minded yourself first. Your comments essentially suggest that no matter what is offered if it isn't easy then you're not interested.

Personally, I'm not one of those people that is deadset on another exploratory zone, Eureka has my least favorite relic grind. I would take something similar to ARR/HW, even with it being toned down some. People like yourself will of course refuse to have it any other way than it is now though. I can guarantee you that if the relics for DT changed back to an older model you would be screaming about how non-inclusive they are.

[ForteNightshade]

This just proves exactly what I'm saying though....
I came in to talk about what I liked about the Endwalker relics and how they can be improved, but there seems to be no option for discussion. People like yourself are disingenuously claiming that you have had content "stolen" from you or that anyone who disagres with you is "lazy" and "wants a handout".
There is no discussion to be had when one side comes in bad faith and tries to constantly and disingenuously paint the other side like that. There is no compromise with it or discussion, So I suppose we can let this go back to what the last 5 threads about relics have been, people who miss the ARR books whining about how it "means nothing" now that everyone can get a relic, they all agree with each other, echo chamber ensues, and then they are surprised when other people don't share their same opinion.

You keep using that word. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

First and foremost, I never once claimed anyone was lazy for preferring this method. I simply stated it requires no actual effort. Which is true. You even acknowledge as much yourself, albeit indirectly, when mentioning how passive they are. That, by definition, is effortless. You aren't actively doing content for the relic but are simply earning tomes through dailies, hunts or whatever that you would have otherwise.

As for content being "stolen". How else would you describe something removed with no replacement. If come JP fanfest they announce outside of the initial 7.0 launch, dungeons will no longer be made so they can put that effort towards a third Ultimate. Would you not feel a bit slighted that content you've enjoyed was taken away to make someone for a different demographic? This wasn't even a case of them trying something new that simply didn't work. They added nothing. In fact, Hildebrand's inclusion kind of feels entirely forced because without making it mandatory, you quite literally have a single quest to begin your relic "journey."

Regardless, for someone insisted the discussion is "disingenuous" or one-sided, your initial post did nothing but lambast Exploratory content and how much you despised it as Neko pointed out. How is that not "in bad faith?" Beginning a supposed discussion with "I essentially hate everything about the old relics" isn't exactly opening up to compromise. Especially when you mouth off about echo chamber nonsense. Plenty of us have different ideas on how we'd prefer the relics to go in Dawntrail. Our only actual agreement is we want something involved. Granted, I'll say this much. The relics have kept the marketboard somewhat alive. So... yay?

Basically, the impression you're giving is you might throw a bone out but what the relic to remain mostly the same going forward. Naturally, a lot of people will disagree outright because this method has been divisive to say the least. So much, in fact, Yoshida himself acknowledged the criticism they were getting.