Frontline Kinda Sucks

[AnnRam]

Let's address the elephant in the room. The problem is Battle High, not premades or meta comps. It's once those things have battle high, they become unstoppable wrecking balls.

Without BH then you could have a full party of unkillable DRKS.
Some jobs depends of having Battle high to perform well (MCH/MNK/BLM) without BH I want to believe every match would end with almost no deaths

[Chasingstars]

Without BH then you could have a full party of unkillable DRKS.
Some jobs depends of having Battle high to perform well (MCH/MNK/BLM) without BH I want to believe every match would end with almost no deaths

Or how about everyone has a trait in frontlines. Its the equivalent of battle high 5. After all why bother with pretense? Just like how your gear and materia used to matter in pvp, until they got rid of that and just streamlined that aspect because it previously created inbalanced teams.

[Astrahime]

Make BH5 players show up on the map again so that you don't get blindsided from them attacking from behind a wall. And give people 8v8v8 as an option again. PVP kits are balanced around CC anyway, and having less players should mitigate the AoE issues we currently run into.

And i'd love to be able to say "no" to the premade by using guard, but that doesn't take into account the fact that every single instance of damage snapshots in this game when the button is pressed, not when the animation ends. Which combined with the animation delay on Guard itself, makes it sound like you're saying Wobbling is a balanced mechanic in Melee.

If that damage snapshotting wasn't a thing, people would actually use Guard instead of seeing it as a useless skill because it slows you down and prevents you from attacking.

[NekoMataMata]

Without BH then you could have a full party of unkillable DRKS.
Some jobs depends of having Battle high to perform well (MCH/MNK/BLM) without BH I want to believe every match would end with almost no deaths

Increase the overall damage and remove BH.

I said BH was a problem a long time ago. It's a win-more tool. Even if every single alliance was on equal footing at the start, the alliance that comes out of the first few skirmishes with the most BH is going to slowly take the lead unless they misplay horribly. This gets even worse when there's obvious differences in skill levels between groups. If one group is far more coordinated then other groups won't really stand any chance after the people start getting BH.

Even without literally every issue mentioned in this thread, BH is still unhealthy, but every problem we've mentioned so far is made far, far worse with BH's existence.

[Mawlzy]

Increase the overall damage and remove BH.

I said BH was a problem a long time ago. It's a win-more tool. Even if every single alliance was on equal footing at the start, the alliance that comes out of the first few skirmishes with the most BH is going to slowly take the lead unless they misplay horribly. This gets even worse when there's obvious differences in skill levels between groups. If one group is far more coordinated then other groups won't really stand any chance after the people start getting BH.

Even without literally every issue mentioned in this thread, BH is still unhealthy, but every problem we've mentioned so far is made far, far worse with BH's existence.

I can go either way on this. BH certainly magnifies the oppressive influence of premades, but I've had many matches where farming BH from weakies in the alliance that includes the premade gives some counter to the premade itself. Additionally, when the result of such matches seems borderline pre-determined (pun intended), aiming for BH5 is one of the few entertaining things left to do.

[NekoMataMata]

I can go either way on this. BH certainly magnifies the oppressive influence of premades, but I've had many matches where farming BH from weakies in the alliance that includes the premade gives some counter to the premade itself. Additionally, when the result of such matches seems borderline pre-determined (pun intended), aiming for BH5 is one of the few entertaining things left to do.

I don't think your example works well because it's a case of good players vs bad players. Not all premades are good. There are premades and conductors and combinations of both that have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

Farming BH isn't necessarily how you win, it's more so the benefit of winning that enables you to keep winning. That's really all there is to it.

Which ever team is more organized will farm BH more quickly and will become unstoppable. You might have the rare game where you can farm BH off stragglers, or maybe even be a team 2 feeding off team 3 to overtake team 1(which is how the mode is intended), but that doesn't usually happen. More often than not one team takes off and you struggle to catch up.

[Mawlzy]

I don't think your example works well because it's a case of good players vs bad players. Not all premades are good. There are premades and conductors and combinations of both that have absolutely no idea what they're doing.

Farming BH isn't necessarily how you win, it's more so the benefit of winning that enables you to keep winning. That's really all there is to it.

Which ever team is more organized will farm BH more quickly and will become unstoppable. You might have the rare game where you can farm BH off stragglers, or maybe even be a team 2 feeding off team 3 to overtake team 1(which is how the mode is intended), but that doesn't usually happen. More often than not one team takes off and you struggle to catch up.

Yeah that's fair. So much depends on the abilities of the players involved.

In favour of BH, I'd suggest that it does add a potential strategy mix. For example, when an effective premade is not polluting the match, I've seen some remarkable come-backs that follow a pattern (at least on the non-Shatter maps). Team A gets crappy early spawns, but is competent enough to realize their best bet is to flank the other teams. They get several hundred points behind due to RNG, but now have the BH to make a contest of it.

In principle I think ideas like this can make for more dynamic and interesting matches, but it does require quality commanders and a team prepared to listen to them.

[IDontPetLalas]

Yeah that's fair. So much depends on the abilities of the players involved.

In favour of BH, I'd suggest that it does add a potential strategy mix. For example, when an effective premade is not polluting the match, I've seen some remarkable come-backs that follow a pattern (at least on the non-Shatter maps). Team A gets crappy early spawns, but is competent enough to realize their best bet is to flank the other teams. They get several hundred points behind due to RNG, but now have the BH to make a contest of it.

In principle I think ideas like this can make for more dynamic and interesting matches, but it does require quality commanders and a team prepared to listen to them.

See the part I highlighted? That's rather the point, isn't it? No effort- no gain. If the team is going to scatter to the winds, each of the pursuing whatever the want to do, or whatever strategy they think works best, then that team should lose.

Also, I would disagree with the concept that premades "pollute" a match, there are several reasons one of them being that as at least one other person as posted, not all premades are strong. That's is also why I would agree that it can lead to some very satisfying come-backs.

[Mawlzy]

See the part I highlighted? That's rather the point, isn't it? No effort- no gain. If the team is going to scatter to the winds, each of the pursuing whatever the want to do, or whatever strategy they think works best, then that team should lose.

Also, I would disagree with the concept that premades "pollute" a match, there are several reasons one of them being that as at least one other person as posted, not all premades are strong. That's is also why I would agree that it can lead to some very satisfying come-backs.

Sure we have a different perspective on the impact of premades. As I noted elsewhere, I've currently quit playing I am so tired of imbalanced matches.

I think where we both agree is we'd like a more competitive mode in which more players are genuinely trying.

[IDontPetLalas]

I'm very sorry to hear that you've quit playing. I hadn't seen that. I do agree that I get the most enjoyment when people are trying. I expect players at various levels in this mode (i.e. some players are very new to pvP), that doesn't bother me at all. It's apathy that that is really the worst.