Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[IDontPetLalas]

Probably worth noting that the only people who have definitive stats on this are SQEX themselves. They can determine unequivocally:

The impact of premades on team win-rates
The win-rates of premades overall
The win-rates of premades as a function of composition

My strong suspicion is that if they take the trouble to analyze such data, the problems will leap out at them like a burst of synchronized LBs.

and then they'll do what? I don't expect them to block premades, and I wouldn't want them to block premades, either. So fine- what about adjusting the algorithm so that specific premades can't enter? Well, the counter-argument to that is (1) unless it's coded in that nothing blocks anyone from changing once they're inside- so someone in that pre-made could just change roles anyway and (2) there's nothing to block someone at any time from changing to a more needed role in an
alliance , but people frequently don't (and thanks to those of you who do)- so why penalize premade compositions?

In addition. let's say that having a premade does have a statistical advantage. I expect that - yes, it does, it would be interesting to know just how big it is, it likely varies according to the premade, and isn't just based upon a specific composition by job, I would hope Square also takes specific players so that player experience could also be analyzed (win rates, number of FL matches, years, whatever).

[Mawlzy]

and then they'll do what? I don't expect them to block premades, and I wouldn't want them to block premades, either. So fine- what about adjusting the algorithm so that specific premades can't enter? Well, the counter-argument to that is (1) unless it's coded in that nothing blocks anyone from changing once they're inside- so someone in that pre-made could just change roles anyway and (2) there's nothing to block someone at any time from changing to a more needed role in an
alliance , but people frequently don't (and thanks to those of you who do)- so why penalize premade compositions?

In addition. let's say that having a premade does have a statistical advantage. I expect that - yes, it does, it would be interesting to know just how big it is, it likely varies according to the premade, and isn't just based upon a specific composition by job, I would hope Square also takes specific players so that player experience could also be analyzed (win rates, number of FL matches, years, whatever).

What they'd do would depend on what their data reveals and whether they regard the current situation as flawed. I have a strong perception there's a problem, but I can't quantify it. Just based on playing experience, I think separate queues for solos and parties would eliminate most of the problems I see. And no doubt balance will continue to be tweaked.

[Doozer]

What they'd do would depend on what their data reveals and whether they regard the current situation as flawed. I have a strong perception there's a problem, but I can't quantify it. Just based on playing experience, I think separate queues for solos and parties would eliminate most of the problems I see. And no doubt balance will continue to be tweaked.

Unfortunately it isn't just premades, because I've seen a premade (DRK/AST/AST/AST) with at least two other ASTs in tow, getting just as much kill participation. I don't know how it could be done with the way the game is designed, but there needs to be some degree of restriction on how many of a job is in each alliance. Either that or nerf AoE damage to make AST less of a nuclear bomb when stacked up with so many of them.

I honestly wouldn't mind if my first suggestion made queue times longer for FL, because then I'd get into a match with a chance of winning. Right now it's 100% loss rate if these DRK/ASTx3+ groups are in the match. There's no competition if one team is guaranteed to win every time.

Also, today after seeing the same group again I decided to send one a tell since they're on the same world as me. It went about as well as you'd expect, since they don't care about ruining the game for other people:



It really shows that they believe they're entitled to the win more than anyone else, which actively disrupts the gameplay for most people in those matches.

[Mawlzy]

It really shows that they believe they're entitled to the win more than anyone else, which actively disrupts the gameplay for most people in those matches.

Yeah it's toxic and really rather pathetic. For the "fun" of four, 68 suffer. I guess my emphasis on separating queues stems from the fact that on Aether, provided there is no premade, the games tend to be mostly competitive and enjoyable. (Except Shatter, but that's a different issue.) Seems that without the added coordination, people are countering the meta to some extent. That said, it might be an improvement to detune AST.

[IDontPetLalas]

Yeah it's toxic and really rather pathetic. For the "fun" of four, 68 suffer. I guess my emphasis on separating queues stems from the fact that on Aether, provided there is no premade, the games tend to be mostly competitive and enjoyable. (Except Shatter, but that's a different issue.) Seems that without the added coordination, people are countering the meta to some extent. That said, it might be an improvement to detune AST.

So a couple of points. By the way- I'm not at all involved, and I usually solo queue.

Doozy contacted a member of the premade, not the other way around. Would I have responded like that? No, however I don't blame them for teasing them when they got DMed. I wouldn't throw out "toxic" when that that occurs- what would you expect them to say" Oh, we're sorry you lost, we'll let you win next time?". I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to point out that contacting them wasn't likely going to get anywhere.

Regarding the queue separation? Sure, in a game dedicated to PVP, I would say yes, and I benefited from that. In this game- no. There's no dev team to support it and I doubt there's enough of a player population for it.

Finally, I don't know what "detune AST" even means, but as a said in a separate post, taking a nerf bat to a specific job isn't a solution.

[Chasingstars]

Finally, I don't know what "detune AST" even means

To nerf. Just like how someone can say a boss fight is "overtuned" as if the devs overestimated and made a fight too hard.

but as a said in a separate post, taking a nerf bat to a specific job isn't a solution.

Sure it is. Its all mathematical at the end of the day when it comes to potencies, damage reduction, and durations.

Think about it like this, the existing thing Drk would be even stronger, not less. As Drk used to have 60% damage reduction, not its current 50%. Meaning a Drk would have been 10% more effective at surviving. And if you want further evidence, Drk already takes a 10% damage decrease penalty for frontlines, meaning they could be dealing even more damage than they currently are from an Astro buff.

That damage reduction nerf they took was more so a byproduct of the, at the time, problem children of Ninja and Samurai and Dragoon who had 60% instead of its current 50% damage reduction. Which that in turn was a byproduct of Summoner spam and got the all non-tank melees from 40% to 60%, as they felt they were too squishy. Which in turn caused also Summoner to get nerfed.

For Astro and Drk they could slap them each with a +15 second charge timer for limit breaks as that is a thing they can just do that is a distinction from CC. 120 second charge timer for Drk and Astro instead of 105 seconds.

[Bonoki]

Unfortunately it isn't just premades, because I've seen a premade (DRK/AST/AST/AST) with at least two other ASTs in tow, getting just as much kill participation. I don't know how it could be done with the way the game is designed, but there needs to be some degree of restriction on how many of a job is in each alliance. Either that or nerf AoE damage to make AST less of a nuclear bomb when stacked up with so many of them.

I honestly wouldn't mind if my first suggestion made queue times longer for FL, because then I'd get into a match with a chance of winning. Right now it's 100% loss rate if these DRK/ASTx3+ groups are in the match. There's no competition if one team is guaranteed to win every time.

Also, today after seeing the same group again I decided to send one a tell since they're on the same world as me. It went about as well as you'd expect, since they don't care about ruining the game for other people:



It really shows that they believe they're entitled to the win more than anyone else, which actively disrupts the gameplay for most people in those matches.

I was in an FC that has a premades from Dynamis in it, and they have a discord channel where they like to post what they call "Cry more salt" when people DM them stuff like this. They said they almost have more fun seeing people get upset over than they do actually winning so they play every day cause the drama they build is fun.

One person tried to even tell me that this is the spirit of PvP and you aren't really PvPing if you aren't flexing your wins. lol...

[IDontPetLalas]

Unfortunately it isn't just premades, because I've seen a premade (DRK/AST/AST/AST) with at least two other ASTs in tow, getting just as much kill participation. I don't know how it could be done with the way the game is designed, but there needs to be some degree of restriction on how many of a job is in each alliance. Either that or nerf AoE damage to make AST less of a nuclear bomb when stacked up with so many of them.

I honestly wouldn't mind if my first suggestion made queue times longer for FL, because then I'd get into a match with a chance of winning. Right now it's 100% loss rate if these DRK/ASTx3+ groups are in the match. There's no competition if one team is guaranteed to win every time.

Also, today after seeing the same group again I decided to send one a tell since they're on the same world as me. It went about as well as you'd expect, since they don't care about ruining the game for other people:



It really shows that they believe they're entitled to the win more than anyone else, which actively disrupts the gameplay for most people in those matches.

It's not an "AST issue". Prior to this, it was A "SMN" issue. If you nerf ASTs (and this wouldn't be the first time), then it would be "nerf DRKs", not to mention there have been multiple cries to nerf various melee jobs.

Also- as you say, limiting the number of a specific job that can queue isn't practical. imagine, you want to queue as - let's say- a machinist. Game says - nope- too many in queue? Or- you've already entered, you want to switch. but the game says- sorry , we have "x" number of machinists, you can't have more? I don't see that working.

The most practical suggestion I've seen is likely a combination of adjustments to several jobs, and that would include limiting AOE effects to no more than 5 players at a time, so that it could be applied to CC as well as FL, since the devs seem very reluctant to separate FL and CC job development.

Finally- I don't know what the screen grab has to do with this discussion? If someone forms a premade and they beat you, it isn't "disruptive gameplay", they're not "ruining the game for other people". They're playing with their friends. You can do the same.

Regarding "guaranteed to win" pretty rare to see a premade that never loses, but if that's how you feel when you're up against that specific premade then it goes double-why not form a premade, or if you know them well by know, try shot-calling?

[Scintilla]

Finally- I don't know what the screen grab has to do with this discussion? If someone forms a premade and they beat you, it isn't "disruptive gameplay", they're not "ruining the game for other people". They're playing with their friends. You can do the same.

There's a whole world of difference between 'playing with friends' and forming voice-coordinated teams with the sole intention of controlling the game to the point where opposing teams have to form a silent alliance to focus them down, with one random team practically forfeiting the match for the sake of the other.

I play with friends. We queue together to be on the same team, but aside from that we play separately. My support/coordination with my friends is no different to that of random players on the team. Our competition remains between each other, comparing scores at the end. These premade teams are totally different, taking heavy advantage of the fact that they have a pre-arranged team which many players may not have (PvP isn't exactly a highly popular part of the game and matters like this contribute to that) and using voice chat to reach a level of coordination which cannot be replicated within a random team. It gives such an immense advantage that sometimes there is practically nothing that can be done to overcome this setup.

You are heavily playing the problem down when you say "they're not ruining the game for other people". Matches are supposed to be as balanced as possible, with each teams having a fairly equal chance of success. Yes, other factors come into play which skew this slightly (class imbalances and team composition, RNG, player experience etc.) but in a regular match each team has a relatively equal chance of winning. In matches with a premade, this 'balance' is heavily disrupted. Sometimes, depending on the premade, it can still be worked through with good luck and a strong team. But in some premade setups, this just isn't possible.

There shouldn't be this level of imbalance. It shouldn't be the case that objectives have to be voluntarily 'given away' to the random team in second place just to keep them in the game while you both focus down the premade's alliance. Games become predictable and dull. More and more players will be turned away from PvP. Why bother when wins are almost guaranteed to go to whichever team has the premade in?


Can we do it? Yes, I suppose if I wanted to I could always organize my own premade with the friends I play with and repeat exactly the same as them. It doesn't take any kind of skill.

Would I want to? No, because I enjoy PvP, I like fair competition, and I like to see more new players joining us in these games.

[Mawlzy]

Can we do it? Yes, I suppose if I wanted to I could always organize my own premade with the friends I play with and repeat exactly the same as them. It doesn't take any kind of skill.

Would I want to? No, because I enjoy PvP, I like fair competition, and I like to see more new players joining us in these games.

Bingo! Instead we get many new players regarding the whole thing as a lottery in which they have no agency, and thus either quitting the mode, or perhaps worse never learning their jobs well nor contributing to their team because "what's the point?"

There are a couple of threads on Reddit in defense of Shatter, in which many self-confessed unstudied players note they like that map because at least they feel they are doing something by smashing ice (despite the fact they're really not). In other words, in the face of oppressive PvP from premades, they default to PvE.

I'd suggest anyone frustrated by "casuals" playing poorly might consider the possibility that, in many cases, this is a direct result of premades creating despondency.