Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[IDontPetLalas]

Yeah it's toxic and really rather pathetic. For the "fun" of four, 68 suffer. I guess my emphasis on separating queues stems from the fact that on Aether, provided there is no premade, the games tend to be mostly competitive and enjoyable. (Except Shatter, but that's a different issue.) Seems that without the added coordination, people are countering the meta to some extent. That said, it might be an improvement to detune AST.

So a couple of points. By the way- I'm not at all involved, and I usually solo queue.

Doozy contacted a member of the premade, not the other way around. Would I have responded like that? No, however I don't blame them for teasing them when they got DMed. I wouldn't throw out "toxic" when that that occurs- what would you expect them to say" Oh, we're sorry you lost, we'll let you win next time?". I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to point out that contacting them wasn't likely going to get anywhere.

Regarding the queue separation? Sure, in a game dedicated to PVP, I would say yes, and I benefited from that. In this game- no. There's no dev team to support it and I doubt there's enough of a player population for it.

Finally, I don't know what "detune AST" even means, but as a said in a separate post, taking a nerf bat to a specific job isn't a solution.

[IDontPetLalas]

What they'd do would depend on what their data reveals and whether they regard the current situation as flawed. I have a strong perception there's a problem, but I can't quantify it. Just based on playing experience, I think separate queues for solos and parties would eliminate most of the problems I see. And no doubt balance will continue to be tweaked.

Separate queues has been discussed for quite a while. I've pointed out a number of issues, I don't know how many games that you played that use separate queues, but it can bring significant issues of its own.

I don't know how many FL matches you've played, nor how long you've been playing- however saying "no doubt balance will continue to be tweaked" shows a very optimistic view, considering the rate and scope of view Square applies FL changes.

[Chasingstars]

Finally, I don't know what "detune AST" even means

To nerf. Just like how someone can say a boss fight is "overtuned" as if the devs overestimated and made a fight too hard.

but as a said in a separate post, taking a nerf bat to a specific job isn't a solution.

Sure it is. Its all mathematical at the end of the day when it comes to potencies, damage reduction, and durations.

Think about it like this, the existing thing Drk would be even stronger, not less. As Drk used to have 60% damage reduction, not its current 50%. Meaning a Drk would have been 10% more effective at surviving. And if you want further evidence, Drk already takes a 10% damage decrease penalty for frontlines, meaning they could be dealing even more damage than they currently are from an Astro buff.

That damage reduction nerf they took was more so a byproduct of the, at the time, problem children of Ninja and Samurai and Dragoon who had 60% instead of its current 50% damage reduction. Which that in turn was a byproduct of Summoner spam and got the all non-tank melees from 40% to 60%, as they felt they were too squishy. Which in turn caused also Summoner to get nerfed.

For Astro and Drk they could slap them each with a +15 second charge timer for limit breaks as that is a thing they can just do that is a distinction from CC. 120 second charge timer for Drk and Astro instead of 105 seconds.

[Mawlzy]

Separate queues has been discussed for quite a while. I've pointed out a number of issues, I don't know how many games that you played that use separate queues, but it can bring significant issues of its own.

I don't know how many FL matches you've played, nor how long you've been playing- however saying "no doubt balance will continue to be tweaked" shows a very optimistic view, considering the rate and scope of view Square applies FL changes.

Both fair points. Over 1k matches, which I realize isn't a lot for veterans, but I think it gives me some handle on the situation. As to other games, that is likely also influencing the views I've expressed. My main MMO prior to FF14 was EVE, which is a PVP-centric, full-loss game. I quit because I got tired of the whole "cry more salt" mindset. But at least it is a balanced battlefield in the sense that, for team vs team battles, the Fleet Commander would always be on voice and individual players had clearly-predefined roles. Fleets are essentially highly-organized statics, which is what we're now seeing in Frontline. I don't think that is the spirit of the mode. Premade vs solo to me is simply curb-stomping.

Regarding your observation about my use of "toxicity," again fair. But I do regard it as depressing that, in what is fundamentally a cooperative, story-driven game, some individuals have so little concern for how their "playstyle" has a negative impact on others.

[Scintilla]

Finally- I don't know what the screen grab has to do with this discussion? If someone forms a premade and they beat you, it isn't "disruptive gameplay", they're not "ruining the game for other people". They're playing with their friends. You can do the same.

There's a whole world of difference between 'playing with friends' and forming voice-coordinated teams with the sole intention of controlling the game to the point where opposing teams have to form a silent alliance to focus them down, with one random team practically forfeiting the match for the sake of the other.

I play with friends. We queue together to be on the same team, but aside from that we play separately. My support/coordination with my friends is no different to that of random players on the team. Our competition remains between each other, comparing scores at the end. These premade teams are totally different, taking heavy advantage of the fact that they have a pre-arranged team which many players may not have (PvP isn't exactly a highly popular part of the game and matters like this contribute to that) and using voice chat to reach a level of coordination which cannot be replicated within a random team. It gives such an immense advantage that sometimes there is practically nothing that can be done to overcome this setup.

You are heavily playing the problem down when you say "they're not ruining the game for other people". Matches are supposed to be as balanced as possible, with each teams having a fairly equal chance of success. Yes, other factors come into play which skew this slightly (class imbalances and team composition, RNG, player experience etc.) but in a regular match each team has a relatively equal chance of winning. In matches with a premade, this 'balance' is heavily disrupted. Sometimes, depending on the premade, it can still be worked through with good luck and a strong team. But in some premade setups, this just isn't possible.

There shouldn't be this level of imbalance. It shouldn't be the case that objectives have to be voluntarily 'given away' to the random team in second place just to keep them in the game while you both focus down the premade's alliance. Games become predictable and dull. More and more players will be turned away from PvP. Why bother when wins are almost guaranteed to go to whichever team has the premade in?


Can we do it? Yes, I suppose if I wanted to I could always organize my own premade with the friends I play with and repeat exactly the same as them. It doesn't take any kind of skill.

Would I want to? No, because I enjoy PvP, I like fair competition, and I like to see more new players joining us in these games.

[Mawlzy]

Can we do it? Yes, I suppose if I wanted to I could always organize my own premade with the friends I play with and repeat exactly the same as them. It doesn't take any kind of skill.

Would I want to? No, because I enjoy PvP, I like fair competition, and I like to see more new players joining us in these games.

Bingo! Instead we get many new players regarding the whole thing as a lottery in which they have no agency, and thus either quitting the mode, or perhaps worse never learning their jobs well nor contributing to their team because "what's the point?"

There are a couple of threads on Reddit in defense of Shatter, in which many self-confessed unstudied players note they like that map because at least they feel they are doing something by smashing ice (despite the fact they're really not). In other words, in the face of oppressive PvP from premades, they default to PvE.

I'd suggest anyone frustrated by "casuals" playing poorly might consider the possibility that, in many cases, this is a direct result of premades creating despondency.

[Aubrey_A]

It's tough.

The dev team balances the jobs around CC, not around FL. So it isn't surprising that stacking jobs with similar thematics (large AoEs, smaller AoEs with larger damage, etc) causes an uproar. My issue is that the skill floor to execute a coordinated attack is abysmally low. A well-coordinated shot caller can see great success without the need for voice chat. I can't imagine how effective a succinct, voice-chatting group of 4 can be (not that I can't, I have seen both the giving and receiving end). I recognize that the level of balance change is more work than I think SE is willing to put in. So what is there to do?

While a separation between group ques and solo ques could be created, I look to the Feast group ques from the past. It was never populated from what I remember; so to that end, I'm not sure if separate queues are the answer. Maybe it is? I don't have the information to see if multiple queues could be justified.

Limiting AoEs to a certain amount of enemies hit? Reducing damage of an AoE attack after 3 or 4 enemies are hit? Although I did think this was a good idea before, it gets less attractive as time goes on. How will the game choose who gets hit by AoEs?

• Lowest HP enemies hit? To me, that sounds like a recipe for kill-steal after kill-steal. Not a mechanic that promotes fun in my mind.
• Closest enemies to the caster? That's a funny recommendation given the current meta is based around congregating enemies into 1 singular spot. To me it feels like we will have DRGs with their 5-10 yalm nukes, and other jobs that mimic what a DRG does with their AoEs. Not to mention some classes are based around that AoE hitting as many enemies as it can.

At the end of the day, FL should be fun. No one likes losing, but why play FL if it's not fun? Rewards keep people around, but I hope the majority of people play FL because they enjoy it. And even if this is anecdotal based on my experience, I understand how a few are ruining it for the many. Group play may not be intentionally ruining it, but I never thought I'd say "teamwork is so effective, that it's having unintended consequences for the whole beyond just helping win a match". I'm disappointed that some sort of solution hasn't been put into place, but not surprised given how the patch cycles pace out. Hopefully 7.0 will shake out some of the issues.

Please look forward to it, I suppose.


PS:If anyone else has a solution I haven't heard, I'm all ears

[Miki_L]

Separate queues for premade will just create a dead queue and will effectively remove premades from frontlines. Which has the same effect as just banning them in the first place. Which I'm pretty sure is what the people in this thread want. I highly doubt any of you are thinking from the premade's perspectives.

The AoE cap thing to me is not a huge issue when the main reason 5+ people get hit by AoEs is that they were poorly positioned in the first place. You have ranged players literally standing on the same pixels for pretty much no benefit when they can just maintain a loose spread and spread even further when a DRK rushes in. Then when they do get pulled in you'll maybe see like one/two of them even bothering to press guard in the first place. It's funny to see players complain about the DRK meta while also not engaging in any form of counterplay against it at all. Sure they could implement an AoE cap but I highly doubt it will actually solve the issue like some of you think.

What I think should be changed is:

1.) Salted Earth causes some debuff that makes you immune to it for like 30 seconds so multiple DRKs can't chain them together. Also if they could make it more responsive somehow.
2.) AST needs to be hit because it has no counterplay. I think Macrocosmos is honestly just an oversight that SE didn't think a single thought about.
3.) Potentially nerfing BH to make the mode less about farming newbs and more about strategic play (BH should still exist however)
4.) More changes to jobs to make them more enjoyable to play in a FL environment. I'm talking more range on some moves or other minor changes. For instance, with machinist, I think its heat stacks should last longer as it is unrealistic in FL to actually farm up to full stacks when you constantly have to avoid AoE combos.

I also think the mode needs to reward 2nd place more than 3rd place to encourage people to try more.

[Mawlzy]

Separate queues for premade will just create a dead queue and will effectively remove premades from frontlines. Which has the same effect as just banning them in the first place. Which I'm pretty sure is what the people in this thread want. I highly doubt any of you are thinking from the premade's perspectives.

Doozer provided an example of one premade's perspective, straight from the horse's mouth.

[Jettinson]

It's tough.

The dev team balances the jobs around CC, not around FL. So it isn't surprising that stacking jobs with similar thematics (large AoEs, smaller AoEs with larger damage, etc) causes an uproar. My issue is that the skill floor to execute a coordinated attack is abysmally low. A well-coordinated shot caller can see great success without the need for voice chat. I can't imagine how effective a succinct, voice-chatting group of 4 can be (not that I can't, I have seen both the giving and receiving end). I recognize that the level of balance change is more work than I think SE is willing to put in. So what is there to do?

While a separation between group ques and solo ques could be created, I look to the Feast group ques from the past. It was never populated from what I remember; so to that end, I'm not sure if separate queues are the answer. Maybe it is? I don't have the information to see if multiple queues could be justified.

Limiting AoEs to a certain amount of enemies hit? Reducing damage of an AoE attack after 3 or 4 enemies are hit? Although I did think this was a good idea before, it gets less attractive as time goes on. How will the game choose who gets hit by AoEs?

• Lowest HP enemies hit? To me, that sounds like a recipe for kill-steal after kill-steal. Not a mechanic that promotes fun in my mind.
• Closest enemies to the caster? That's a funny recommendation given the current meta is based around congregating enemies into 1 singular spot. To me it feels like we will have DRGs with their 5-10 yalm nukes, and other jobs that mimic what a DRG does with their AoEs. Not to mention some classes are based around that AoE hitting as many enemies as it can.

At the end of the day, FL should be fun. No one likes losing, but why play FL if it's not fun? Rewards keep people around, but I hope the majority of people play FL because they enjoy it. And even if this is anecdotal based on my experience, I understand how a few are ruining it for the many. Group play may not be intentionally ruining it, but I never thought I'd say "teamwork is so effective, that it's having unintended consequences for the whole beyond just helping win a match". I'm disappointed that some sort of solution hasn't been put into place, but not surprised given how the patch cycles pace out. Hopefully 7.0 will shake out some of the issues.

Please look forward to it, I suppose.


PS:If anyone else has a solution I haven't heard, I'm all ears

No solution and LB still being generated outside of battle is wild for example.
Luckily for me, I play for fun, switch up classes and not die of boredom plus i'm glad that FL gives rewards especially tomes or else I wouldn't even stay subbed.

But after all these patches, I just gave up on hoping for a proper FL balance, the only saving grace was the whole Paladin's Cover being fixed and thank godness for that.