Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Doozer]

It's not an "AST issue". Prior to this, it was A "SMN" issue. If you nerf ASTs (and this wouldn't be the first time), then it would be "nerf DRKs", not to mention there have been multiple cries to nerf various melee jobs.

Also- as you say, limiting the number of a specific job that can queue isn't practical. imagine, you want to queue as - let's say- a machinist. Game says - nope- too many in queue? Or- you've already entered, you want to switch. but the game says- sorry , we have "x" number of machinists, you can't have more? I don't see that working.

The most practical suggestion I've seen is likely a combination of adjustments to several jobs, and that would include limiting AOE effects to no more than 5 players at a time, so that it could be applied to CC as well as FL, since the devs seem very reluctant to separate FL and CC job development.

Finally- I don't know what the screen grab has to do with this discussion? If someone forms a premade and they beat you, it isn't "disruptive gameplay", they're not "ruining the game for other people". They're playing with their friends. You can do the same.

Regarding "guaranteed to win" pretty rare to see a premade that never loses, but if that's how you feel when you're up against that specific premade then it goes double-why not form a premade, or if you know them well by know, try shot-calling?

First of all, I never said it was an AST issue. In fact, I said that it's not any single job, but multiples of some being stacked together. And you're saying my suggestions to nerf won't work, but "adjustments" will? Okay semantics.

The screen grab has something to do with it because when confronted about their behaviour, they revel in it. Look at the posts above you, it's relevant.

You also really don't understand that the solution to a party comp that always wins is not the same party comp. Ever heard of how fighting fire with fire just makes more fire? And yes, every time I've seen that specific group, they've won every single time. They don't have to be strategic, they don't even have to take the objectives, they just follow the single DRK, pull in a bunch of people, nuke them, repeat. They always win. I've never seen them lose. They win enough that they're committed to doing it all the time. Do you really not understand? Shot-calling does nothing. There are people trying to win by grouping up and playing better and it still doesn't stop these people, hence my problem. Stop putting the blame on me and start acknowledging that something is wrong.

[Aravell]

It kind of looks like people have forgotten what PvP is. Everyone wants to win, no one wants to lose. The pre-mades are just maximising their chances of winning, anyone can do the same, they're not being disruptive, they're not being mean-spirited, they're just trying to win. Nothing they're doing is illegal, their only obligation is to win for their team, there is no obligation to make sure the opponent teams have a good and fun match.

As for FL being as balanced as possible, if you want to get rid of the overperforming pre-mades, the underperforming people would need to be cut out too. If you want the best balance, you'd need to cut off the bottom if you cut off the top.

[IDontPetLalas]

Bingo! Instead we get many new players regarding the whole thing as a lottery in which they have no agency, and thus either quitting the mode, or perhaps worse never learning their jobs well nor contributing to their team because "what's the point?"

There are a couple of threads on Reddit in defense of Shatter, in which many self-confessed unstudied players note they like that map because at least they feel they are doing something by smashing ice (despite the fact they're really not). In other words, in the face of oppressive PvP from premades, they default to PvE.

I'd suggest anyone frustrated by "casuals" playing poorly might consider the possibility that, in many cases, this is a direct result of premades creating despondency.

If there is a "bingo" moment here, a new player often has no agency because they don't understand how FL works, they have never PvPed at all (no situational awareness), or they have never even used their new skills or know other job PvP skills - there should be a mandatory tutorial to introduce them before FL can be joined
However- the actual alliance composition is RNG, and that is because this is not a PVP oriented game. This is not EvE, nor any number of other PvP oriented games of which I have played (I know Eve, but haven't played it). That doesn't mean that a relatively small number of players can't make a difference .


So is saying that "matches are supposed to be as balanced as possible" that's a worthy goal to aim for - however now you have a lot of factors to consider (1) the PvP design team, and the mode that they balance for - it is NOT Frontline. (2) Do they consider the presence of pre-mades to be an issue ? Past history says no- they would have to agree. (3) New players quitting the mode- from my own view, at even this late in the expansion- queues don't seem to be an issue- that's also based on the number of sprouts I see- BUT I would trust Square's metrics more than just my experience in queues.

In addition, I don't rely upon a few Reddit threads (which I also follow) to see whether there are "oppressive premades" - people often whack ice in Shatter for the same reason that they say "let them fight" in any FL mode, and in many (not all) cases because they think BH doesn't apply in Shatter.

Finally- given some of the endgame stats, I'm not going to blame premades "creating despondancy". Not when I see some players with practically no damage, assists or kills. If someone is that easily discouraged, perhaps they should ask for some tips, or try another mode, or try another job.

[IDontPetLalas]

First of all, I never said it was an AST issue. In fact, I said that it's not any single job, but multiples of some being stacked together. And you're saying my suggestions to nerf won't work, but "adjustments" will? Okay semantics.

The screen grab has something to do with it because when confronted about their behaviour, they revel in it. Look at the posts above you, it's relevant.

You also really don't understand that the solution to a party comp that always wins is not the same party comp. Ever heard of how fighting fire with fire just makes more fire? And yes, every time I've seen that specific group, they've won every single time. They don't have to be strategic, they don't even have to take the objectives, they just follow the single DRK, pull in a bunch of people, nuke them, repeat. They always win. I've never seen them lose. They win enough that they're committed to doing it all the time. Do you really not understand? Shot-calling does nothing. There are people trying to win by grouping up and playing better and it still doesn't stop these people, hence my problem. Stop putting the blame on me and start acknowledging that something is wrong.

So, what exactly are you trying to do here? You're talking about my "blaming" you, when you're posting about an issue that you're having, which I know nothing about, and when I make some suggestions about how you might succeed with what sounds like a specific premade, you get self-defensive.

What is your objective here? Do you want to win your matches, or do you want to go ahead and start nerfing jobs? Because I prefer to find out how to win. Because frequently (not always), when the discussion goes to "nerf this job"- then the people who want a job nerfed then move on to the next target, and the cycle of nerfs and buffs goes on and on. In any case- it won't help you right now.

No one is forcing you to use the same composition. I didn't say that. I've been in fights where we beat teams that *should* have beat us because they had the "meta" jobs- but they didn't. I suggested shot-calling, because you seem to have come up against them often enough to have learned their tactics- if you can't understand why that should help you- then I agree, something sounds very wrong, that premade is playing better than you, and they deserve to win.

[IDontPetLalas]

Separate queues for premade will just create a dead queue and will effectively remove premades from frontlines. Which has the same effect as just banning them in the first place. Which I'm pretty sure is what the people in this thread want. I highly doubt any of you are thinking from the premade's perspectives.

The AoE cap thing to me is not a huge issue when the main reason 5+ people get hit by AoEs is that they were poorly positioned in the first place. You have ranged players literally standing on the same pixels for pretty much no benefit when they can just maintain a loose spread and spread even further when a DRK rushes in. Then when they do get pulled in you'll maybe see like one/two of them even bothering to press guard in the first place. It's funny to see players complain about the DRK meta while also not engaging in any form of counterplay against it at all. Sure they could implement an AoE cap but I highly doubt it will actually solve the issue like some of you think.

What I think should be changed is:

1.) Salted Earth causes some debuff that makes you immune to it for like 30 seconds so multiple DRKs can't chain them together. Also if they could make it more responsive somehow.
2.) AST needs to be hit because it has no counterplay. I think Macrocosmos is honestly just an oversight that SE didn't think a single thought about.
3.) Potentially nerfing BH to make the mode less about farming newbs and more about strategic play (BH should still exist however)
4.) More changes to jobs to make them more enjoyable to play in a FL environment. I'm talking more range on some moves or other minor changes. For instance, with machinist, I think its heat stacks should last longer as it is unrealistic in FL to actually farm up to full stacks when you constantly have to avoid AoE combos.

I also think the mode needs to reward 2nd place more than 3rd place to encourage people to try more.

Regarding number 2- silence- that's on 2 jobs.

[Mawlzy]

In addition, I don't rely upon a few Reddit threads (which I also follow) to see whether there are "oppressive premades" - people often whack ice in Shatter for the same reason that they say "let them fight" in any FL mode, and in many (not all) cases because they think BH doesn't apply in Shatter.

I'm not relying on Reddit threads. I'm basing my suggestions on my own experience playing the mode, the comments in FL chat, and what is to me the blindingly-obvious fact that queue mixing is unfair to solo players. There are plenty of other reasons that FL is less than ideal and that players get hacked off. This is one with an ostensibly simple fix.

FWIW a few days ago on Aether during peak times, one of these oppressive premades and a flurry of negative comments in chat "coincided" with the queue time suddenly shifting from its usual 2-3 minutes to 9+. On the DC on which I play, premades are a problem.

You're quite correct to ask if a twin-queue is something SQEX would contemplate. Do we have any evidence they might? Say, a "ranked" 8v8v8 party-queue FL, and a "casual" 24v24v24 solo queue? This is exactly the sort of approach SQEX takes to keep its casual players, who pay the bills, engaged, while giving the more ambitious ones some tougher content.

FWIW if an 8v8v8 party queue mode was introduced, I'd immediately seek out a pseudo-static to join. I suspect it would be a ton of fun.

[IDontPetLalas]

I'm not relying on Reddit threads. I'm basing my suggestions on my own experience playing the mode, the comments in FL chat, and what is to me the blindingly-obvious fact that queue mixing is unfair to solo players. There are plenty of other reasons that FL is less than ideal and that players get hacked off. This is one with an ostensibly simple fix.

FWIW a few days ago on Aether during peak times, one of these oppressive premades and a flurry of negative comments in chat "coincided" with the queue time suddenly shifting from its usual 2-3 minutes to 9+. On the DC on which I play, premades are a problem.

You're quite correct to ask if a twin-queue is something SQEX would contemplate. Do we have any evidence they might? Say, a "ranked" 8v8v8 party-queue FL, and a "casual" 24v24v24 solo queue? This is exactly the sort of approach SQEX takes to keep its casual players, who pay the bills, engaged, while giving the more ambitious ones some tougher content.

FWIW if an 8v8v8 party queue mode was introduced, I'd immediately seek out a pseudo-static to join. I suspect it would be a ton of fun.

Would Square implement an 8x8x8 premade queue? I have no way of knowing that, personally as long as queues were acceptable I would be fine with it. You have your experience of some queues lengthening due to some people avoiding a premade, I'm not going to dispute that, personally I haven't had it happen, it may or may not have happened to other people. I have no idea - I can only speak for my own experience- and I haven't had an issue with pre-mades. That does not mean that I haven't lost to one. Those comments in chat comments in chat if they see a premade? I wonder how many of them are useful, and how many of them are from people who don't really try - like someone who commented recently at the start that if they saw "x" premade they were just going to run. You know, even if the odds are that you (group "you") are likely going to lose, if you at least try, you can improve. But if you quit like that- you can't even give yourself the chance to improve or try to have some fun. I find that rather sad.

[Doozer]

So, what exactly are you trying to do here? You're talking about my "blaming" you, when you're posting about an issue that you're having, which I know nothing about, and when I make some suggestions about how you might succeed with what sounds like a specific premade, you get self-defensive.

What is your objective here? Do you want to win your matches, or do you want to go ahead and start nerfing jobs? Because I prefer to find out how to win. Because frequently (not always), when the discussion goes to "nerf this job"- then the people who want a job nerfed then move on to the next target, and the cycle of nerfs and buffs goes on and on. In any case- it won't help you right now.

No one is forcing you to use the same composition. I didn't say that. I've been in fights where we beat teams that *should* have beat us because they had the "meta" jobs- but they didn't. I suggested shot-calling, because you seem to have come up against them often enough to have learned their tactics- if you can't understand why that should help you- then I agree, something sounds very wrong, that premade is playing better than you, and they deserve to win.

You are blaming me, because you're assuming/implying that the only reason why we don't beat them is because we aren't trying hard enough, or that I'm not shot-calling. Suggesting it as a solution implies that would fix it, which wouldn't. I know their strat, it's the DRK runs in with 6 healers covering him, pulls everyone in, and then the ASTs all nuke everyone. The only solution is to Guard and that's not always available. You can't outheal the damage as it's happening. How would shot-calling fix that? Say "don't go there, you'll die"? What if that's the objective? You have to understand that this enemy team doesn't play normally because they can always win. They don't scurry around and try to flank or pinch, they just run in and kill everyone because that specific comp lets them.

My objective is I want match outcome to be based in skill and not whether one party has DRKs and ASTs in large numbers all grouping together. And that last bit is a joke, and after reading that I would be surprised if you sometimes took part in that kind of behaviour. Everyone who has played against them hates it because there's no chance to win no matter what. Get your head out of their asses and realize this.

[IDontPetLalas]

You are blaming me, because you're assuming/implying that the only reason why we don't beat them is because we aren't trying hard enough, or that I'm not shot-calling. Suggesting it as a solution implies that would fix it, which wouldn't. I know their strat, it's the DRK runs in with 6 healers covering him, pulls everyone in, and then the ASTs all nuke everyone. The only solution is to Guard and that's not always available. You can't outheal the damage as it's happening. How would shot-calling fix that? Say "don't go there, you'll die"? What if that's the objective? You have to understand that this enemy team doesn't play normally because they can always win. They don't scurry around and try to flank or pinch, they just run in and kill everyone because that specific comp lets them.

My objective is I want match outcome to be based in skill and not whether one party has DRKs and ASTs in large numbers all grouping together. And that last bit is a joke, and after reading that I would be surprised if you sometimes took part in that kind of behaviour. Everyone who has played against them hates it because there's no chance to win no matter what. Get your head out of their asses and realize this.

So, it seems that you've made up your mind as to what the problem is and are open to any other resolution.

I'll try anyways, so- I doubt that Square will enforce composition limits, that may enforce job design changes that would be compatible with CC ( which I think would be the best solution).

In the meantime, unless Square makes changes, you could always leave when you see that premade, which is, by definition "playing normally" it seems, and beating you on skill, unless you suspect that they are using.. shall I say..assistance? By the way- you can deflect on me all that you want - but I solo queue.

[Doozer]

So, it seems that you've made up your mind as to what the problem is and are open to any other resolution.

I'll try anyways, so- I doubt that Square will enforce composition limits, that may enforce job design changes that would be compatible with CC ( which I think would be the best solution).

In the meantime, unless Square makes changes, you could always leave when you see that premade, which is, by definition "playing normally" it seems, and beating you on skill, unless you suspect that they are using.. shall I say..assistance? By the way- you can deflect on me all that you want - but I solo queue.

I'll be honest, I'm sick of talking to you. Everything you say is dripped in "git gud" when player skill isn't the problem. Which is what I've been saying the whole time. You won't understand me no matter how I rephrase things since I don't think you'd know player skill if it bit you in the ass, so maybe it's time to just drop it. And by "maybe" I mean I don't plan to reply to you anymore so don't bother continuing. It's a waste of time. You will anyway, saying "aha, so you admit you're bad! I win!" but I won't be looking at it. Nothing you've said to anyone in this thread has been constructive whatsoever, so why bother. You're less interesting than the person that's just been trolling for the past week.