7.0 Tank Wishlist

[Shurrikhan]

I think TBN shouldn't be punishing darks with massive potency loss.

I like the "risk vs reward" aspect of TBN it adds a lot of skill expression to Dark Knight, the issue is that in reality its all risk no reward.
I much rather TBN Actually Increases the next Edge of shadow / flood of shadow by lets say 20%? if used correctly on a target, instead of this punishing ability that you only use when you know it will break.

A reward missed is a punishment. There's no real difference between the two.

If something you can optimize feels more like a punishment than a reward, it generally means only either that the job is tuned such that it needs more perfect use of the given skill than its competitors do of their analogs and/or the type of output rewarded isn't well valued due to the present content tuning and/or errant community perceptions.

Make TBN damage-positive via the bonus damage of 20% of an Edge/Flood and now you've got over 400 relative potency per minute dependent on your using (and popping) TBN on CD.

I'm not against softening the punishment a bit, but rewards missed are still punishment, and it's best to assume that any maximum ppm they produce is just going to be balanced out directly (removed from the skill) or indirectly (other skills of that level range will lose a bit of potency in compensation).

[Rithy255]

A reward missed is a punishment. There's no real difference between the two.

If something you can optimize feels more like a punishment than a reward, it generally means only either that the job is tuned such that it needs more perfect use of the given skill than its competitors do of their analogs and/or the type of output rewarded isn't well valued due to the present content tuning and/or errant community perceptions.

Make TBN damage-positive via the bonus damage of 20% of an Edge/Flood and now you've got over 400 relative potency per minute dependent on your using (and popping) TBN on CD.

Having something to optimize doesn't always have to feel like a punishment to me I think Third eye is a good example of something to optimize that doesn't feel like you're losing too much if you don't always time it correctly, it gives a job high celling which I view always as a good thing.

Maybe 20% increase is too large, but you can decrease that value to 10% or 5% (or even lower), I think rewarding Dark Knight with a slight damage gain instead of outright punishing the dark knight for 460 Potency each time TBN doesn't pop is way more punishing as a feel.

I think all tanks could use a small gain on proper defensive use anyway, I just thought DRK's current TBN isn't really a fun skill to use, it's more one that just feels punishing when other tanks get what dark knight has but for free, TBN's current design would make more sense if we were in shadowbringers honestly where it had so much more value then other tank defensives.

[Lyth]

...

The issue isn't really about how the gain is framed. If it's a potency gain, there's a pressure on you to use the defensive on recast when playing optimally. You'd be obliged to break TBN every 15 seconds to maximize your performance. This is the same reason why Shield Swipe was removed after Stormblood, due to its interaction with Sheltron.

I personally think this is an extreme approach, though. It's fun to reward the player with a counterattack after they use a defensive action. You just need to change the design that there are specific conditions under which that effect triggers (i.e. only on red arrow tankbusters). It's still mandatory at set intervals, except the frequency of this is just once every 1-2 minutes as opposed to all the time. And it also encourages you to shield your co-tank for extra damage output.

[Rithy255]

The issue isn't really about how the gain is framed. If it's a potency gain, there's a pressure on you to use the defensive on recast when playing optimally. You'd be obliged to break TBN every 15 seconds to maximize your performance. This is the same reason why Shield Swipe was removed after Stormblood, due to its interaction with Sheltron.

I personally think this is an extreme approach, though. It's fun to reward the player with a counterattack after they use a defensive action. You just need to change the design that there are specific conditions under which that effect triggers (i.e. only on red arrow tankbusters). It's still mandatory at set intervals, except the frequency of this is just once every 1-2 minutes as opposed to all the time. And it also encourages you to shield your co-tank for extra damage output.

Only on red arrow tank busters makes it pointless, because you're already going to use short cd's on tank busters, it's not even a reward at that point, The entire point would be for DRK's knowing fights well in this example would reward them with the tiniest of damage margins, it would actually encourage good use... not just when the game tells you outright to use your skill, I feel like that takes out all the fun out in actually maximising.

I just find the whole idea that if you're not maximising your damage at all times that it's somehow suddenly a bad thing a bit odd... Like I said Third eye rewards samurais perfectly fine currently, I don't see many complain about third eye on samurai.

I just don't see how it's a bad thing in the first place for tanks (dark knight in this case) to actively be rewarded for using proper timing, I'm not saying counter attacks should be tied to a massive chunk of tanks damage, I personally think it should be the smallest of bonuses for being able to pop it more often, even if you had better gear and it would be harder to pop you'd obviously be doing more damage anyway so I wouldn't even see how that's a issue.

[Shurrikhan]

I just find the whole idea that if you're not maximising your damage at all times that it's somehow suddenly a bad thing a bit odd... Like I said Third eye rewards samurais perfectly fine currently, I don't see many complain about third eye on samurai.

The point is to maximize party DPS, not necessarily your own DPS. The problem is simply when broader tuning issues are so out of whack that even forgoing your ~4000 healer potency (~5000 in tank potency) per minute in shielding per TBN oGCD... still might not make enough of a difference to actually force out a GCD heal on you or someone else later (due to using on you a bankable oGCD more than they scheduled out), meaning that the defensive may produce nothing.

If the TBNs were to each, say, produce at least 1 extra Dosis cast made possible, each of which does 429 tank potency in damage atop 221 tank potency in healing (since healers' output is all multiplied by 1.3x relative to tanks due to their Maim and Mend traits and tanks' lack of anything similar), in addition to saving healer MP, TBN would be worth casting any time it could be maxed out even if it didn't grant Edge/Flood on break at all.


As for why people don't worry as much (or rather, since TE was nerfed from its media tour pre-release state to its state since) about SAM needing raid damage every 15s in order to deal its max DPS...SAM has considerably more flexible weave space and the Third Eye's mitigation is frankly pitiful so it wouldn't need to forgo taking advantage of a tickle per 15s to mitigate something near-fatal that'd come up slightly outside of that rhythm. It's just not big enough to make a difference given that SAM already has more HP than certain raidmates who don't have any personal defensives, period (like Rangers, DRG, or RDM).

As such, Third Eye has no conflict between defensive or offensive use that would cause one aspect to be overriden by the other... because it's already purely an offensive tool. It's already that thoughtless. It has no decision-making or impact outside of its up to 40 gauge (worth 452 effective potency) per minute, only some minutia in learning how early you can get away with pre-popping TE in order to grab another 10 gauge as little as 12s later (though still for that max of 40 gauge per minute).


All that being said, Third Eye is arguably an example of how a defensive ought not to be designed (by making it no longer a defensive or leaving it so influenced by wider imbalances that its defensive value is redundant/irrelevant). It doesn't excuse that design; it shows it'd be wasteful even on a Melee DPS. Putting that on tank is not a great idea.

[Rithy255]

All that being said, Third Eye is arguably an example of how a defensive ought not to be designed (by making it no longer a defensive or leaving it so influenced by wider imbalances that its defensive value is redundant/irrelevant). It doesn't excuse that design; it shows it'd be wasteful even on a Melee DPS. Putting that on tank is not a great idea.

Timed tank counter attack role action button would also be kinda cool if it was a purely offensive ability. I like the idea of having a extra layer to your damage. I like third eye and damage gains for timed actions... I just think that's a matter of preference.

I'm not going argue on what I'd prefer anyway a lot of what I'd like in game wouldn't be popular with a good amount of people. I think I much rather TBN just be more rewarding then something so punishing, maybe my idea wouldn't work well for TBN in particular, just really don't like how you have to break it current with no real benefit, but I think removing that aspect would also sort of annoy some people, why I thought maybe it should just reward good use but not outright punish you for using it poorly.

[Shurrikhan]

be more rewarding then something so punishing

Again, a glass half-empty/half-full is still a glass using 50% its capacity, whatever you call that state.

The current system is just a means of letting TBN have an extra 0.6 charges relative to the likes of Heart of Stone/Corundum and IR/Bloodwhetting (technically, up to almost 0.85s, when you consider how far TBN can be pre-popped before a tankbuster), and a way to have a flat sustain tool (just gives X potency of barrier, the max damage nullification of which scales only with your own stats, not incoming damage) scale somewhat with more intensive situations, just as percentile sustain tools would (such as %DR).

TBN's system is a way of providing a bit more skill expression in a thematic way and better nearing parity (e.g., against skills with %DR) without having to be overly homogenous (such as by having %DR itself). It's... pretty damn smart, honestly.


And that current reward for the "risk" of TBN is that added flexibility and up to a free ~2100 extra barrier potency per minute (almost two-thirds more throughput) compared to if it cost no MP but had a fixed 25s CD. That's not insignificant.

It just feels less significant than it should because the reward is sustain, not direct damage, and the ability of tanks to leverage that towards party dps (and indeed the indirect power of tanks in general to provide party dps through means other than their own raw dps) has been so trimmed away over time (and, frankly, was never that great to begin with in XIV).

just really don't like how you have to break it current with no real benefit, but I think removing that aspect would also sort of annoy some people

On the other hand, merely softening the punishment somewhat would probably annoy almost no one.

For instance, make Dark Arts granular, having it simply act like barrier HP but for your MP, and consumable only by your attacks and only when you're below 60% MP (i.e., you wouldn't be able to get another spender off after the current one), to a max of... 5000 MP or w/e. Now, have every 2% of TBN's barrier consumed give back 1% of its cost via Dark Arts (so, 60 MP of Dark Arts for every %HP's worth of barrier consumed), doubled if the whole thing is consumed. With that, at least you have a pity prize of up to 1498 MP refunded via Dark Arts for not using up the whole thing.

Or, if you're willing to tick off those who like that sense of fighting for the full pop, skip the doubling for the full pop and just have it refund via Dark Arts 1% of TBN's cost for every 1% of TBN's barrier consumed (120 MP for every 1% HP's worth of barrier consumed).