How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Renathras]

Your little rant about terrible, awful raiders that clear early and don't let people into their parties. It's not me being bad-faith if I'm pointing at things you actually say, so don't assume.

...except I neither said terrible nor awful...
<_<

And no, we're not talking about Savage, we're talking about Extremes. At least I am, and as we're talking about my post in response to your questions...that would mean we're talking about Extremes.

Also, I'm here on the forums for actual discussion, so how about you not assume everything is a gotcha attempt and stop treating everyone like an enemy?

....

This is me. I'm here for actual discussion and you were assuming my posts were snide remark attempts (the wording you used) and that I'm treating everyone like an enemy?

/taps forhead

Look, I will - and do - try and not attack you or your arguments as such. I didn't in the post before that. All I DID say was that trying to correct someone when they're just trying to answer questions you asked them to better understand them isn't leading to you getting a better understanding. I went on to address the points you raised anyway, and I didn't make any snide remarks, call you an enemy, treat you in bad faith, etc. I just went with the idea that you were still trying to understand and that I could use the post and further elaborating on the 4 points raised to try and help with that process. If you haven't noticed, I don't often do so anyway when you aren't being snarky with me (contrast my responses to the people who ARE just being snarky), because generally I think you're a somewhat reasonable enough person and that we disagree but it might be possible to have compromises or at least understanding with.

Note that's very difficult when you make up things I didn't say ("terrible raiders", "terrible, awful raiders") or say things like "There was absolutely no need to make a snide jab at me as if I was trying to gotcha you or something. You're making things difficult, I asked you a question to clarify, you clarified, and we continue to have the discussion, no? Seems to run counter to your asking for good-faith discussion if you turn around and take jabs at me for trying to have a discussion." when I intended no "snide jab", wasn't "making things difficult", and was and still am engaging in good faith. You can't act like everything is a snide jab or bad faith all the time.

You're suggesting that to try to accommodate to everyone but it's falling short. That's what everyone is telling you but you can't accept it.

Alright. Counterpoint: The suggestions proposed to accommodate everyone with more damage abilities/complexity is also falling short, and everyone who doesn't want those is telling you but you, and those others advocating for it, can't accept it.

So where do we go from there?

The "pay off" to play the "more complex" Jobs should be "not being bored".

Answer this question:

Is the purpose of making the rotations more complex to not be bored OR TO DO MORE DAMAGE THAN OTHER PLAYERS?

Also, no, people "can't stand me" because they don't like that I represent a perspective they disagree with and won't be cowed into shutting up about it. And also, look at you with the lies/false accusations. CLEARLY I don't view everything as bait. The stuff I view as bait I call out as such. Directly. I don't make any bones about it. I will quote and say OUTRIGHT "this is heckling" or "this is bait". MEANING EVERYTHING ELSE I DO NOT VIEW AS BAIT. So how then, in your world, can I possibly "view everything as a bait"?

And for all this accusation of me misinterpreting or ignoring arguments - (1) my arguments are constantly misconstrued (often outright blatantly and often strawmanned), and (2) I do come in under character limits sometimes, and would more if the forum had no daily limit since I'm having to contest literally half a dozen or more people in a thread quoting and replying to me, AND (3) I don't ignore arguments - my posts are so long because I literally address NEARLY everything in the replies to me.

If you're going to insult me, at least don't make up outright lies to do so.

.

Also, it's always weird to have someone say not everyone's an enemy followed by someone saying "this is why people can't stand him" (which heavily implies most/all without exceptions). Just a weird dissonance. (Yes yes, there some "technicality" argument, doesn't matter, it's still an odd disjointed combination of statements.)

Honestly, this is a misconception that's been around since the year dot...

Given how often the issue comes up, I genuinely don't think "the raider PF experience" and "the 'normal' player PF experience" are the same. Do you really think they are? I think there's also a very different caliber of player week 1-2 in clear group PFs than in week 5-8, with a tapering in between. Do you think that isn't true?

I'm talking Extremes, but this seems to be true with Savages. I know some people trying to get their Savage tier clears now and having a lot of difficulty finding half-way competent people to do it with. Most people have outright moved on from doing the content, and those still progging it were the people unable to get clears before now. While some were too busy with life/etc, some...are of a lower skill level. Extremes have a similar problem, though less pronounced...I think.

I also didn't mean to say only raiders check that "has cleared" box. I mean it's done by people once they clear, usually, meaning people who haven't can't join those parties, and thus rely on a more and more...lower average skill...pool of people to try and get their clears on. Having done both early and late clears, week 2 is WAAAAY easier to get a successful clear group than week 8 is.

EW has been particularly bad about this because of the cross-world PF stuff (Aether or bust, I guess?) and the high number of body checks in EW Extremes compared to past expansions and that EW Extremes have sometimes come in closer to Savage difficulty level than normal.

EDIT:

I'm actually not sure why some people see this as evil and an act of gatekeeping...

By whom do you mean "some people"?

I didn't say it was evil.

I said it was happening, and thus it's relevant to the people that have to try and get clears despite it.