How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Aravell]

I want you to UNDERSTAND a thing you DIDN'T understand, by your own admission, BEFORE.

And? I understood your argument and made a rebuttal, that's what discussion means, it's what I'm trying to do. There was absolutely no need to make a snide jab at me as if I was trying to gotcha you or something. You're making things difficult, I asked you a question to clarify, you clarified, and we continue to have the discussion, no? Seems to run counter to your asking for good-faith discussion if you turn around and take jabs at me for trying to have a discussion.

Also, why go out of your way to paint a picture of "terrible raiders" when you're quoting me if you don't actually mean to tag me as one?

[Renathras]

And? I understood your argument and made a rebuttal, that's what discussion means, it's what I'm trying to do. There was absolutely no need to make a snide jab at me as if I was trying to gotcha you or something. You're making things difficult, I asked you a question to clarify, you clarified, and we continue to have the discussion, no? Seems to run counter to your asking for good-faith discussion if you turn around and take jabs at me for trying to have a discussion.

Also, why go out of your way to paint a picture of "terrible raiders" when you're quoting me if you don't actually mean to tag me as one?

Okay, so you now understand my argument - not a caricature of it? - and won't tell me anymore that you don't understand my position? Good.

I wasn't making a jab or making things difficult, though, so it seems you still don't understand. And now you're trying to make a snide jab gotcha about "good faith".

Though I have to ask, where...did I say anything about "terrible raiders"? o.O I can't find the phrase in my post responding to you. Or ANY of my posts, actually. How is it good faith to make up things other people haven't said? /sigh

EDIT:

Anyway, this is, again, pointless. So I won't keep participating in this tangent.

If you don't understand something, ask questions.

If I keep saying you're wrong about what you're saying about me or my arguments, it might pay to ask questions there to lead to understanding - That is, if you say "Are you saying X" and I say "I've be outright opposed to X this whole time, are you even reading my posts?", it should be clear you're misunderstanding something. Especially if I'm saying it over and over again to the same people.

I feel like at least half of the opposition to me is people NOT doing that and making assumptions "You said people should be able to parse purple doing the bare minimum one-button spam" (someone above, not you) type stuff, outright making up stuff I didn't say and that is directly opposed to stuff I have said ("you're saying we can't have more dps and healing complexity at the same time" "I've literally proposed a system where we would have more dps and healing complexity at the same time on some healer Jobs..."), so they have something to disagree with me over since, if people actually took only the arguments I've made, and noted the rebuttals I've presented, at least half the arguments used in opposition to me wouldn't be voiced since they aren't things I've argued for/against.

...and that's not counting the just outright insults from people who don't know and don't care to know my positions - they've just made up what they WANT my positions to be, so they can hate me for having them, and then not bother even arguing them instead going with mockery and discrediting to "defeat" them via ad hominem fallacy - as those aren't even arguments at this point.

I suspect, at the core, people would generally agree with my positions on SCH, AST, and SGE, that oGCD heals are too prevalent and too powerful, and that encounter design is too much on the "light tickle" side when it comes to healing and damage output. That's like 90% of the argument right there that we likely agree on if people bothered to read and understand.

[Aravell]

Though I have to ask, where...did I say anything about "terrible raiders"?

Your little rant about terrible, awful raiders that clear early and don't let people into their parties. It's not me being bad-faith if I'm pointing at things you actually say, so don't assume.

The problem here (I'm talking about Extremes, btw), is that high end players with statics DO NOT understand the average player experience in this game. You guys have your BiS Savage gear and your static team, you go into an Extreme on patch launch week, and get your clear. Or you join with all the other top players clearing it week one. People like me wait a few weeks, watch videos, get some additional gear, then go into the content. By then, all you high achievers are done and we have to do the content with...well, everyone else who isn't. AND you won't let us join your reclear parties since we haven't gotten our FIRST clear yet. So we have to deal with the "rabble of scrubs" from the general PF community who ALSO haven't cleared yet (otherwise they'd also be in farm/reclear parties), don't know optimal rotations, and often you can't even get to watch a YouTube video, much less expect they will go to the Balance to know their optimal rotation even ignoring that they won't have hours of target dummy practice even if you could get them to do so...all to get said first clear. Only then is the "reclear experience" relevant. This disconnect between high end raiders and people with statics vs everyone else is one of the cruxes of these discussions, and I don't understand why people don't understand this. I get we're often insular in life where we know our own experiences and underestimate what everyone else has to deal with, but it's extremely important in discussing changes like this to understand it.

For the record, if we're talking about savage, it's not early clearers not wanting to help, it's that people want a full loot clear, and people who already cleared can't join without reducing the amount of loot.

Also, I'm here on the forums for actual discussion, so how about you not assume everything is a gotcha attempt and stop treating everyone like an enemy? It makes it very hard to get a discussion going. You've also made caricatures out of my argument before, so don't even pull that one on me.