How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[IDontPetLalas]

No it's not.

That is disingenuous, a straw man, AND a lie.

EDIT:

Also: For a person that says "just ignore the hecklers", you do a lot of heckling. Have you ever considered you may be part of the problem?

And I also see you didn't answer the question of why I should shut up while other people should be allowed to post their thoughts...other than just insulting me, lying about (and also insulting) my arguments, and avoiding the question, that is.

Just going to add one of your recent gems. Did you ever hear the old saying about "people in glass houses not throwing stones" ?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6383695

[Renathras]

Isn't the whole point of you wanting to keep WHM the same is so you can have a healer with the easier rotation (if you even wanna call it a rotation) that people got used to already?

Yes.

DPS rotation.

On a healer.

Where does that say that they can't have changes to...their HEALING kit?

And no, it's not "advocating for bad players". It's advocating for players that don't like optimizing damage rotations. Contrary to popular belief, there are OTHER THINGS to optimize than damage rotations. I'm genuinely curious, do you think everyone on earth enjoys the exact same things? Do you think every gamer enjoys optimizing damage rotations and complex DPS rotations and nothing else? Surely not... So what you're advocating for is no one BUT people that like optimizing DPS rotations having any Job in this game they can enjoy, even healers, which are in theory not designed around optimizing around DPS complexity.

And again, that'd be like saying asking for more DPS complexity is advocating for tryhard elitists that want to flex their e-peen and think they're better than everyone while not allowing other players to even clear Extremes. It's an ad hominem attack...on an argument. You're not even addressing the argument, you're just slandering it so you can ignore it.

Just going to add one of your recent gems. Did you ever hear the old saying about "people in glass houses not throwing stones" ?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6383695

"recent gems" where I didn't do the things in question? Got it.

Show me where I've said you should shut up and not be allowed to express your opinions. Or where you made posts with no heckling nor insult and I responded with such instead of addressing your arguments - I make it a point to address arguments when presented. etc etc. Indeed, I'm often so refreshed, I jump into action on those and stick tightly to just a rebuttal/asking questions because I WANT to encourage people to do THAT instead of...whatever THIS is you're doing now. If you make posts with actual good faith arguments and neither heckling nor insult, I absolutely respond extremely well to that. It's so rare to see it, it's a breath of fresh air when anyone in these conversations does that! I absolutely try to encourage it. Not really much of a "glass house".

.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter.

The Devs have said they like healers how they are and are making them with people like me in mind. So when you find someone like me advocating for you to get at least some of what you want, you shouldn't be trying to silence us, you should be pointing to us and saying "Oh Devs! Hey look! Someone who you're making healers to appeal to says they're okay with changing some of them to appeal to us. Doesn't that sound fair? If even he is okay with, for example, SGE having a DPS rotation, that sounds like a good reason to give us one, doesn't it??"

If, instead, you have an absolutionist, all or nothing approach, then you're likely to get nothing. And if you get nothing...well, that's that, then. I'll still be happy with what I have, you'll be upset, and you'll have only yourselves to blame. But if that's what you want - so many when I ask "If the Devs offered you changing three and leaving one alone, would you really reject that?" refuse to answer the question because they don't want to be on record saying it would be acceptable to them (or preferable to alternatives). So in the end, if the Devs stay the course - which at present they are very likely to do - then it won't matter.

If WHM ever gets more dps options or additional job mechanics, I feel like they should take inspiration from BLM or RDM considering WHM has lore ties to those jobs -- like either something like dual cast or another passively built resource.

I think a lot of people believe this, but it's not really accurate.

In lore, the White Mages of Amdapor were diametrically opposed to the Black Mages of Mhach. The only thing they have in common is they both learned to draw on ambient aether to cast their spells unlike THMs (and later RDMs) who use only the personal aether in their bodies and so had a more limited pool of magic to work with. RDM is tied to BLM and WHM because it tries to combine some of their techniques but do so with efficiencies like attacks that recycle aether or capture expended aether to recycle into additional spells. That is, where BLM/WHM spells are ultimately inefficient, overusing aether and wasting a lot (gas guzzling humvee, for example), RDM spells are hyper efficient, reclaiming some of the waste and using it to fuel additional spells (think carbon recapture techniques or expended nuclear fuel re-enrichment for additional power generation use, etc, on top of already being energy efficient to begin with). And despite not being directly connected to SCHs (and ACNs), they use their body as a sort of proxy for ACN arcane geometries, physically moving their body to form geometries that add additional power to their spells. Because of all this, they only use their personal aether, but can cast spells less powerful than a WHM or BLM, but within the same general ballpark/weight class. A RDM Flare or Holy should be (in lore) weaker than a BLM Flare or WHM Holy, but relatively comparable in damage and with a far lesser impact on the environment and ambient aether. In a lore sense, RDM is more related to ACN and THM than to BLM and WHM in that way, as they use a more efficient, less environmentally impactful art of spellcasting (like THM using only its personal aether and ACN using arcane geometries that tap natural aether and merely redirect it) than WHM and BLM do.

Basically, RDM's figured out how to do what the NPC quest/solo duty "BLMs" in the HW BLM quests were trying to do. Note those BLMs burned out and killed themselves because casting powerful BLM spells with the BLM inefficiency but only using personal aether to fuel it consumes all of one's aether and kills oneself. RDMs, through their efficiencies, found a way around this. Note also, though, that RDMs have to be in VERY good shape. The art is demanding since you have to move your body both very precisely and often very energetically. This athleticism is something few other Jobs have to match (probably just NIN and MNK and DNC are used to that level of cardio), which makes RDM very demanding...which is why few people have taken up the art over the years (even before they were hunted to near extinction) because it's both mentally (spell casting/learning) AND physically demanding.

That said:

Thundercloud procs or I riot!

(Seriously, come on SE, it's the ultimate low hanging fruit, maybe even more so than Chocobo boots).

...Diacloud procs probably wouldn't be such a bad addition. It's basically a random chance "instant cast GCD direct damage" that you use infrequently. Just have the proc buff stack to 2 and we're golden (that way you don't HAVE to use it right away, e.g. if you're in the middle of a heal check, so reduces the issue of overcapping, something BLM doesn't have to ever worry about since they never have a "give me a minute, I need to heal the party" moment.)

[Thurmnmurmn]

Yes.

DPS rotation.

On a healer.

Where does that say that they can't have changes to...their HEALING kit?

And no, it's not "advocating for bad players". It's advocating for players that don't like optimizing damage rotations. Contrary to popular belief, there are OTHER THINGS to optimize than damage rotations. I'm genuinely curious, do you think everyone on earth enjoys the exact same things? Do you think every gamer enjoys optimizing damage rotations and complex DPS rotations and nothing else? Surely not... So what you're advocating for is no one BUT people that like optimizing DPS rotations having any Job in this game they can enjoy, even healers, which are in theory not designed around optimizing around DPS complexity.

And again, that'd be like saying asking for more DPS complexity is advocating for tryhard elitists that want to flex their e-peen and think they're better than everyone while not allowing other players to even clear Extremes. It's an ad hominem attack...on an argument. You're not even addressing the argument, you're just slandering it so you can ignore it.

A large issue with healing is just how bored people are with the lack of dps rotation for downtime. And you even already touched on the biggest issue. The fights not dealing enough damage and being one shots for certain things people get hit by. So healers don't have to heal most the time. So if you wanna talk about changing the fight philosophy, then that's a valid discussion. But speaking about how the current fights are set up, talking about DPS rotation makes sense since it's practically all we do.

Players who don't want to improve are bad players in my eyes. You can be super bad at the game but if you try to improve (even if it's slow), I'll respect you as a player way more.

And no that's not a fair comparison since as I said before, a group can clear with full grey parses. Raising the ceiling doesn't mean we have to lower the floor. Just means you get faster clears if you put in the time to optimize.

But I'm certain this isn't the first time you hear this.

[TheDustyOne]

It's not a lobotomy to leave something as it is. You can argue it's like installing a chip in 3 people's heads to make them smarter and leaving one dumb, but there are plenty of irl Humans that would rather not have the chip (in the somewhat near future, this is going to be a real choice we have, like as not, btw...)

I get hyperbole isn't your strong point, but at least try to understand the point being made, not going off on another subject.

As for Ty's surveys - while I like them because I like more data, neither is a scientific survey. There are no control groups, and there's no weighting based on anything. It's raw data from the places on the internet where people are most likely to want more complex things and be hanging out while disgruntled with the current offerings. The first survey also reached a wider audience and had less people asking for more DPS actions than the second, which seemed to be more limited to people responding from here and FFXIVDiscussion, two places most annoyed with current healer design. Most of them also do not have a "don't change anything" option, meaning people have to pick something, and so many may be picking something that they don't really want but is just the "best of the available options". Regardless, the point is they're somewhat useful for gauging what mostly high end players that want more complex healer Jobs want, but not necessarily for gauging what the playerbase as a whole or "most WHM" etc want.

As far as I remember from that first survey, it was still majority wanting DPS, so ignoring the second in favour of the first because the results are more favourable to you isn't helping you. When people were given multiple choices of what they wouldn't mind seeing, 80% still say more DPS, that would most definitely include people that also selected more healing options. Are you telling me we should ignore those players because you, and people who think like you, know what they want better than them?
They also had the option for "Unsure" if they didn't know what they wanted, it's pointless to ask for "No change" because they're going to be disappointed come the next expansion anyway with its additions.

And even there, are mostly limited to English speakers. Apparently, the JP community doesn't want more damage complexity on healers, they want more healing complexity - including their high end players - and that isn't reflected in Ty's surveys. So they are interesting and useful, but must be considered carefully based on those limitations.

It is possible to have more healing complexity and more DPS complexity, I know Square has a habit of only caring for the Japanese playerbase, but they can't keep ignoring overseas playerbases forever. And since the overseas playerbases want more DPS options, it's not a farfetched idea to do both, Japanese players are free to ignore them if they want.

And, even within those surveys, there are "a hell of a lot" that don't want more expanded DPS kits. (As for SB WHM, the problem wasn't it had no identity, the problem was the kit was HORRIBLE and actively worked against its identity - for example, during one period, you generated Lilies...by casting...Cure 1. Think about that one for a minute.) For example, in the first survey, more than half of WHMs said they preferred ShB/EW to ARR/HW/SB WHM, indicating they prefer the current gameplay.

There's no real evidence for "hell of a lot" that don't want extra DPS, Tys survey may only be a small sample, but at least it's SOMETHING to go off of. I know you have a habit of assuming you're speaking for the silent majority, but considering they also are thinking humans themselves with differing opinions, they can range anywhere from "I don't care" to either "more healing" or "more DPS" or "Get out of my house".

I'm aware of how bad lilies were in SB, I started WHM back in SB, and moved to SCH because of how dull WHM was. I also lurked the forums back then and still remember people complaining that they hated Squares idea of WHM effectively being a heal bot, that it only offered more healing compared to the other healers that only results in overhealing. What it offered was nothing unique and did less damage than the other healers, had it offered more damage options and higher DPS overall, it would've had a niche of its own to make up for lack of utility.

Also Tys first survey has more than half wanting a rework, half in particular wanting big changes, not having it stay the same:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8Hk/edit#gid=0

That does not suggest to me that they "prefer ShB/EW", it means they unhappy with WHM as a whole and that ShB/EW is the "least bad" to the point where more than half want it changed up. Only 16% wanted "no rework."

The number one request for WHM was not "add a lot of damage buttons or interactivity" it was "Can we just have Aero 3 back? Nothing else, just Aero 3."

Ironic that you say:

Please don't strawman.

When you're putting words in my mouth about "add a lot of damage buttons or interactivity". You're intentionally weakening my position to attack that instead, which is most definitely a strawman. I've said previously that I'd be happy with just two, TWO damage buttons on WHM. That isn't "a lot of damage buttons or interactivity", that's one more than Aero III.

This is why people don't think you're arguing in good faith here. It sounds hollow whenever you say you want a good faith discussion.

Good grief can we please keep the post lengths down? It's exhausting.

[Thurmnmurmn]

Raising the ceiling doesn't mean we have to lower the floor.

On mobile now so I can't edit. I meant to say doesn't mean we have to raise the floor, not lower.

[SargeTheSeagull]

Insert talking to a brick wall here bc i can't figure out how to make jpegs work on this forum. So from what I can tell everyone basically wants healers to have more complexity in some way. Their DPS kits, heal kits, both etc. Ren meanwhile wants three of the healers to improve but not white mage. WHM needs to stay boring and braindead so that people who want to put in zero effort can still purple parse. Am I about summing that up correctly?

[Aravell]

Snip

I was under the impression that you wanted a discussion, so I asked you to clarify some points so we could have a discussion. But you only want me to say "I see your point, but I disagree"? Ok then.

I see your point, but I disagree.

Also, it's hilarious that you think I have a static because I only mentioned reclears. I cleared the first 3 floors of savage purely through PF and P10S took me 10 hours, thank you very much. I also tend to do some community service where I join random PFs and try and get them some clears, but thank you for painting me as a toxic elitist that wants to gatekeep the poor, downtrodden PF players.

[Saraide]

This point about ex trials is so bad. It's not those evil elitist raiders keeping you from clearing or wanting to prevent you from clearing. If your group has enrage problems then the fault lies squarely with the dps. You cant say you care about clearing if you ignore the problem in the room that is preventing you from doing so. And that's dps players who are bad at their job and/or bad at mechanics. The reason why I say it takes effort to see enrages in ex trials is because it takes effort to keep the party alive through numerous half wipes all the way until enrage without having an actual wipe.

[Kyrj]

This point about ex trials is so bad. It's not those evil elitist raiders keeping you from clearing or wanting to prevent you from clearing. If your group has enrage problems then the fault lies squarely with the dps. You cant say you care about clearing if you ignore the problem in the room that is preventing you from doing so. And that's dps players who are bad at their job and/or bad at mechanics. The reason why I say it takes effort to see enrages in ex trials is because it takes effort to keep the party alive through numerous half wipes all the way until enrage without having an actual wipe.

Unfortunately, we will never be "allowed" to use the tools to help the DPS figure out what they're doing wrong.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

This point about ex trials is so bad. It's not those evil elitist raiders keeping you from clearing or wanting to prevent you from clearing. If your group has enrage problems then the fault lies squarely with the dps. You cant say you care about clearing if you ignore the problem in the room that is preventing you from doing so. And that's dps players who are bad at their job and/or bad at mechanics. The reason why I say it takes effort to see enrages in ex trials is because it takes effort to keep the party alive through numerous half wipes all the way until enrage without having an actual wipe.

Frankly, the more I read the snippets of these tit-for-tat, the more that I think this is a self inflicted raiding inferiority complex. Or what people likes to say... funny colored numbers.