How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Renathras]

...

So you know: When trying to understand someone's perspective, the thing you should do is listen to them and, if what they're saying doesn't make sense to you yet, ask more questions of them.
...not tell them why you think they're wrong, since that's not you seeking to understand, it's seeking to correct or change them. You can't really say "I don't understand you" when you aren't trying to understand, only to correct/change them.

Anyway, that's also common, so I'll just move onto the points and questions.

1) Right, but we're not talking about "experienced and inexperienced". We're talking about "experienced with what is and experienced with what you want to move to". So it's a different argument here. If we change nothing, a person experienced with current WHM playing as they do now will probably be pretty optimal in DT (since not much is likely to change on the DPS side of things). On the other hand, if we do the changes you want, now that person has a gap between them and the "new crowd" who pick up the Job with its more complex kit. So this is a different argument, and thus an invalid comparison. Also, see my answer to (2). A WHM gray can clear content with a party of oranges. A WHM gray cannot clear content in a party of grays. There are far more grays in PF than there are oranges, from my experience. Further, I haven't said we "can't have optimisation of both damage and healing" and it is ""not allowed". HAVE I NOT SAID over and over again to do that with 2 or 3 of the Healer Jobs JUST NOT ALL OF THEM?

2) AND YET, my experiences have happened. While the DPS players are blamed for enrages, I don't care about blame. I care about getting the clears of the content. And if I'm able to drag some weaker parties through NOW but won't be able to later, THAT IS RELEVANT. You say "I've been doing reclears" - how many REclear parties can you join when you haven't gotten your FIRST CLEAR yet? Oh, right: None. Meaning you have to get that FIRST clear first. The problem here (I'm talking about Extremes, btw), is that high end players with statics DO NOT understand the average player experience in this game. You guys have your BiS Savage gear and your static team, you go into an Extreme on patch launch week, and get your clear. Or you join with all the other top players clearing it week one. People like me wait a few weeks, watch videos, get some additional gear, then go into the content. By then, all you high achievers are done and we have to do the content with...well, everyone else who isn't. AND you won't let us join your reclear parties since we haven't gotten our FIRST clear yet. So we have to deal with the "rabble of scrubs" from the general PF community who ALSO haven't cleared yet (otherwise they'd also be in farm/reclear parties), don't know optimal rotations, and often you can't even get to watch a YouTube video, much less expect they will go to the Balance to know their optimal rotation even ignoring that they won't have hours of target dummy practice even if you could get them to do so...all to get said first clear. Only then is the "reclear experience" relevant. This disconnect between high end raiders and people with statics vs everyone else is one of the cruxes of these discussions, and I don't understand why people don't understand this. I get we're often insular in life where we know our own experiences and underestimate what everyone else has to deal with, but it's extremely important in discussing changes like this to understand it.

3) You just asked me "Why do you think...will be considered bad players". I answered the question. Why are you asking a different question now? Why did you ask me "Why do you think people will consider you bad" if you were going to turn around and say "Well, it doesn't matter and you shouldn't be ashamed"? The fact remains, it's relevant. Statics recruit and kick based on that, people talk about it, even here where it's a direct violation of ToS, people have mentioned other people's parses (and/or lack of clear history) as reason to attack their perspectives and arguments. When all of that is happening - yes, it is relevant. If none of that was happening? Sure, it wouldn't be. But all of that IS happening, so it IS relevant.

4) Again, IT CAN BE: My 4 Healers Model is specifically saying to do it. Just not to do it on ALL OF THE HEALER JOBS. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? You keep saying I'm adamantly opposed to the idea when I VERY CLEARLY am not, as I've PROPOSED IT MYSELF hundreds of times. What you don't understand is people who don't like optimizing DPS will not be happy if they're forced to do it on all Healer Jobs. It's like asking "why can't everyone be happy only optimizing healing?". Because not everyone enjoys that, or enjoys it under some conditions. It's like asking "Why can't everyone's favorite color be blue?" Because people have different preferences. I dislike optimizing for damage. It's that simple. It's why I don't play DPS Jobs often, and when I do, I play the ones most easy to optimize, because I don't enjoy that. I DO enjoy optimizing healing. I like thinking about which spells are MP efficient (which is totally irrelevant now but USED to be relevant), which are the best use of my resources, which factor in things like movement for mechanics, and so on. Those are optimizations I enjoy. And BOTH SIDES CAN BE HAPPY...with the 4 Healers Model. It is, in fact, the ONLY model that CAN make both sides happy. And I'm genuinely confused as to why that is difficult to understand...

[Saraide]

snip

The first point means literally nothing. If you're familiar with the abilities already in play you'll have a much easier time adjusting to a substantial rework of one half of the job than some having to learn both halves of the job.

The second point: if your party hits enrages in ex trials, the problem is a lack of mechanic understanding. Enrages have been so loose in the ex trials this expansion you actually have to put in effort to see them. You can say that you dont care about who is to blame but that doesnt change the fact that the problem in ex trial enrages is not the healer's damage output. Especially if better gear is involved. Good job keeping a group of headless chicken alive enough to see enrage tho.

Third point: do not mix up forum and ingame communication. This is a discussion forum so credentials will rightfully be questioned. If you cant stand your credentials being questioned about a topic you are trying to discuss then you should bow out of it. No static worth your time will reject you exclusively based on logs. If you cant get into a static there are other issues in place. Given your conduct on this forum however I am not surprised.

4th: it's not correct to leave one healer badly designed. What logic is that even? Do we just hit the casino to find out which one it is? I think scholar should be the braindead one because I dont like the job aesthetic and we should give players who leveled smn first access to the easiest healer!

[Renathras]

Even when polled with Tys survey...

It's not a lobotomy to leave something as it is. You can argue it's like installing a chip in 3 people's heads to make them smarter and leaving one dumb, but there are plenty of irl Humans that would rather not have the chip (in the somewhat near future, this is going to be a real choice we have, like as not, btw...)

As for Ty's surveys - while I like them because I like more data, neither is a scientific survey. There are no control groups, and there's no weighting based on anything. It's raw data from the places on the internet where people are most likely to want more complex things and be hanging out while disgruntled with the current offerings. The first survey also reached a wider audience and had less people asking for more DPS actions than the second, which seemed to be more limited to people responding from here and FFXIVDiscussion, two places most annoyed with current healer design. Most of them also do not have a "don't change anything" option, meaning people have to pick something, and so many may be picking something that they don't really want but is just the "best of the available options". Regardless, the point is they're somewhat useful for gauging what mostly high end players that want more complex healer Jobs want, but not necessarily for gauging what the playerbase as a whole or "most WHM" etc want.

And even there, are mostly limited to English speakers. Apparently, the JP community doesn't want more damage complexity on healers, they want more healing complexity - including their high end players - and that isn't reflected in Ty's surveys. So they are interesting and useful, but must be considered carefully based on those limitations.

And, even within those surveys, there are "a hell of a lot" that don't want more expanded DPS kits. (As for SB WHM, the problem wasn't it had no identity, the problem was the kit was HORRIBLE and actively worked against its identity - for example, during one period, you generated Lilies...by casting...Cure 1. Think about that one for a minute.) For example, in the first survey, more than half of WHMs said they preferred ShB/EW to ARR/HW/SB WHM, indicating they prefer the current gameplay. The number one request for WHM was not "add a lot of damage buttons or interactivity" it was "Can we just have Aero 3 back? Nothing else, just Aero 3."

And to the last part: As I've said, the proposal is not "no changes", the proposal is "no more complex DPS kit/rotation". Please don't srawman.

As far as comparing BLM vs SMN you are correct. I would point out as a BLM main that I'm highly aware SMN is easier to play and gets you viable DPS with the benefits of high mobility and res. SMN is basically ez mode in comparison. But I will never move to SMN because I don't want that gameplay experience. It's an excellent comparison for illustrating how one class is clearly less popular (BLM) but satisfies a notable amount of players' gameplay preference, which is a very good thing imo. SMN has its own issues I've heard but I don't think bringing to the scale of BLM males any sense. As I've said before every role has and should have a simple but fun job that does most things well (not the best in all aspects, but well). SMN is that for casters imo but I've heard the rotation is boring and that may need some looking at. Similarly every role should have at least one BLM like class to offer those nuances and high ceiling.

Again, I...absolutely agree with this position. (Other than SMN, I like SMN and think it's in the best place it's been since either ARR or ever...but I agree with you on the overall merits/thrust of your argument.

The first point means literally nothing.

Oh my god, do you have ANY idea how annoying this is? Someone says they don't understand, so I offer them to ask questions and I'll try to clarify. They ask, I answer, they give a sort of rebuttal (which isn't what you should do when trying to understand someone, but regardless), and I attempt further clarification.

Instead of saying "Hm...I see what you're saying, but I'd like to see your take on this. Have you considered...?" or "I see what you mean, but I have a question for you...", you say "that means nothing", meaning you outright ignore/disregard my answer - an answer given in good faith to a question asked in good faith. It's toxic and disruptive to conversations, and even ignoring that, IT'S RUDE. The point wasn't an argument inviting a rebuttal, it was an answer to a question., and you could have left off that "The first point means literally nothing" and just started with your second sentence soas not to be so blatantly rude. Not to mention it's wrong - it doesn't mean "literally nothing". Your argument seems to be "If you're already good at/familiar with something, you should be better positioned to adjust than a person who is completely unfamiliar with the thing".

That IS true. In a vacuum. It's not true or applicable here. Why not?

a) First, because we aren't talking about adjusting. The argument is for people who continue playing the Job with exactly the same cadence as they do now. E.g. refreshing Dia every 30 sec, using Misery once per minute, using Assize on CD, and filling all non Afflatus/Dia GCDs with Glare. There's no "it's easier for you to adjust" when the argument is "you don't have to adjust and will still be viable". You're arguing a different point.

b) Again, some people are good at some things and not others. Suppose you're good at playing guitar and someone tries to get you to play trumpet. You might be good at music in general, and able to make the change. On the other hand, you might be good at STRINGED INSTRUMENTS specifically and have poor lung capacity, meaning while you could change to a bass or possibly violin, switching to a trumpet or other brass or wind instrument is out of the question and would be extremely difficult since the thrust of the change isn't in music theory but rather in physical ability into a different domain you have little experience and skill with from playing your first instrument. This is the same way as "optimizing healing" vs "optimizing DPS". Some people are not skilled at optimizing DPS. Some people can be but are not interested/do not derive joy or fun from optimizing DPS. So why force them to do so when they are literally playing the one role in the game that ISN'T focused on DPS and/or explicitly avoiding the role that IS?

Second point: IT DOES NOT MATTER what the reason is, it matters that it happens. This is dangerously close to the "well, you just shouldn't be allowed to clear content unless you have a static and are a hardcore player" argument, which is invalid. We're talking about Extremes, not Ultimates. Believe me, with the average PF group for first time clears, you do NOT have to put in effort to see enrages...

Third: She asked why I thought a thing would be true and I answered. Note the question did not distinguish between forum and game. And clearly I DO care about forum interactions. "credentials" are not what are being questioned, and that's a BS argument anyway. But the point stands; people WILL make judgements based on it, so it IS relevant. Sorry? ALSO: GOOD FORKING GOD at the mouth and insults on you. I haven't tried getting into a static because I don't have a schedule that allows for it. Way to go on assuming the worst and most insulting thing possible about me instead to put me down. God you are a rude person...

Fourth: It's not "badly designed". WHM right now is very well designed. The only people saying "braindead" are people like you that also call WAR and SMN braindead while insisting their gameplay is lightyears advanced and healers should be more like them. The healers right now are designed just fine, the big problem is they're borderline designed for a different game (encounter design mismatch vs healer kits) and that they're all designed too similarly. When it comes to flow of the kit and viability, though, they all are designed fairly well. WHM and SGE are designed VERY well other than they lack a need to engage with their GCD heals often, though that's more an encounter design issue than their kit designs. AST and SCH have some more issues, but aren't badly designed, they're just more marginal in how their kits fight themselves and don't always interlock smoothly.

I fully believe any one of the healers right now, had it been added in SB, would have worked fine and been popular in that expansion AS IT IS TODAY. If SB had given us EW WHM, it probably would have been popular. I believe this because the ShB version, which was worse than the EW version, WAS popular on release right on the heels of SB. If SB had added current SGE as a new Job, it probably would have been REALLY popular since it would have been such a break with the existing healers at the time. So the healers are NOT "badly designed" right now. That's a lie. They're well designed on the whole (other than possibly SCH), but not everyone likes them. That's a good reason to make some changes, but not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Hence: 4 Healers Model.

[Thurmnmurmn]

snip

Your entire argument is based around "But what about bad people???". If they suck at the game, there's no reason for them to be rewarded more than getting the clear (I think that's even too much of a reward but we're already there now). Which btw news flash, most casual groups do clear with full grey parses already.
If you play well, you get rewarded with a faster clear. Play like you don't care and it will take longer. Simple as that. What you want is some Hello Kitty everyone wins nonsense .
People adapt to changes. Some faster, some slower. That's just how life works.

Also the whole pf thing just yells of entitlement. They make the party, they can decide what criteria they want. If you want to join a party for your first clear but none are up, make one. Others who are also in the same boat as you are also just waiting for someone else to make a party first.
Just because you decided to not run it when it was brand new content doesn't mean you're entitled to being carried by those who did it.

I didn't even check but I'm fairly confident others told you the exact same thing.
I still read your post and just hear a small voice in my head being all like "WAH WAH WAH I'M RIGHT! WHY CAN'T THEY SEE THAT? WAH!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Renathras]

Your entire argument is based around "But what about bad people???".

No it's not.

That is disingenuous, a straw man, AND a lie.

EDIT:

Also: For a person that says "just ignore the hecklers", you do a lot of heckling. Have you ever considered you may be part of the problem?

And I also see you didn't answer the question of why I should shut up while other people should be allowed to post their thoughts...other than just insulting me, lying about (and also insulting) my arguments, and avoiding the question, that is.

[Thurmnmurmn]

No it's not.

That is disingenuous, a straw man, AND a lie.

Maybe not the entire part. but it is something you're arguing for none the less.

[Renathras]

Maybe not the entire part. but it is something you're arguing for none the less.

No I'm not.

That's like saying the people arguing for more complex DPS are all arguing for elitists to be the only one able to clear content and to be able to wave their e-peens around at their "lessers".

EDIT:

Which wouldn't (at least, I don't think it would) be a fair assessment of their views, which is why I avoid doing it. I argue in good faith, which is why I TRY to stick to the arguments people are making, not self-undertaken assessments of what their motivations are, mental state is, personal skill level is, or what they MUST be "secretly" arguing for, either explicitly or implicitly. (Though I will call out repeated insulting offenders, the goal is to ATTEMPT to get them to stop doing it over time. Not that it works often, but hey, you never know...)

[IDontPetLalas]

No it's not.

That is disingenuous, a straw man, AND a lie.

EDIT:

Also: For a person that says "just ignore the hecklers", you do a lot of heckling. Have you ever considered you may be part of the problem?

And I also see you didn't answer the question of why I should shut up while other people should be allowed to post their thoughts...other than just insulting me, lying about (and also insulting) my arguments, and avoiding the question, that is.

Just going to add one of your recent gems. Did you ever hear the old saying about "people in glass houses not throwing stones" ?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6383695

[TheDustyOne]

It's not a lobotomy to leave something as it is. You can argue it's like installing a chip in 3 people's heads to make them smarter and leaving one dumb, but there are plenty of irl Humans that would rather not have the chip (in the somewhat near future, this is going to be a real choice we have, like as not, btw...)

I get hyperbole isn't your strong point, but at least try to understand the point being made, not going off on another subject.

As for Ty's surveys - while I like them because I like more data, neither is a scientific survey. There are no control groups, and there's no weighting based on anything. It's raw data from the places on the internet where people are most likely to want more complex things and be hanging out while disgruntled with the current offerings. The first survey also reached a wider audience and had less people asking for more DPS actions than the second, which seemed to be more limited to people responding from here and FFXIVDiscussion, two places most annoyed with current healer design. Most of them also do not have a "don't change anything" option, meaning people have to pick something, and so many may be picking something that they don't really want but is just the "best of the available options". Regardless, the point is they're somewhat useful for gauging what mostly high end players that want more complex healer Jobs want, but not necessarily for gauging what the playerbase as a whole or "most WHM" etc want.

As far as I remember from that first survey, it was still majority wanting DPS, so ignoring the second in favour of the first because the results are more favourable to you isn't helping you. When people were given multiple choices of what they wouldn't mind seeing, 80% still say more DPS, that would most definitely include people that also selected more healing options. Are you telling me we should ignore those players because you, and people who think like you, know what they want better than them?
They also had the option for "Unsure" if they didn't know what they wanted, it's pointless to ask for "No change" because they're going to be disappointed come the next expansion anyway with its additions.

And even there, are mostly limited to English speakers. Apparently, the JP community doesn't want more damage complexity on healers, they want more healing complexity - including their high end players - and that isn't reflected in Ty's surveys. So they are interesting and useful, but must be considered carefully based on those limitations.

It is possible to have more healing complexity and more DPS complexity, I know Square has a habit of only caring for the Japanese playerbase, but they can't keep ignoring overseas playerbases forever. And since the overseas playerbases want more DPS options, it's not a farfetched idea to do both, Japanese players are free to ignore them if they want.

And, even within those surveys, there are "a hell of a lot" that don't want more expanded DPS kits. (As for SB WHM, the problem wasn't it had no identity, the problem was the kit was HORRIBLE and actively worked against its identity - for example, during one period, you generated Lilies...by casting...Cure 1. Think about that one for a minute.) For example, in the first survey, more than half of WHMs said they preferred ShB/EW to ARR/HW/SB WHM, indicating they prefer the current gameplay.

There's no real evidence for "hell of a lot" that don't want extra DPS, Tys survey may only be a small sample, but at least it's SOMETHING to go off of. I know you have a habit of assuming you're speaking for the silent majority, but considering they also are thinking humans themselves with differing opinions, they can range anywhere from "I don't care" to either "more healing" or "more DPS" or "Get out of my house".

I'm aware of how bad lilies were in SB, I started WHM back in SB, and moved to SCH because of how dull WHM was. I also lurked the forums back then and still remember people complaining that they hated Squares idea of WHM effectively being a heal bot, that it only offered more healing compared to the other healers that only results in overhealing. What it offered was nothing unique and did less damage than the other healers, had it offered more damage options and higher DPS overall, it would've had a niche of its own to make up for lack of utility.

Also Tys first survey has more than half wanting a rework, half in particular wanting big changes, not having it stay the same:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8Hk/edit#gid=0

That does not suggest to me that they "prefer ShB/EW", it means they unhappy with WHM as a whole and that ShB/EW is the "least bad" to the point where more than half want it changed up. Only 16% wanted "no rework."

The number one request for WHM was not "add a lot of damage buttons or interactivity" it was "Can we just have Aero 3 back? Nothing else, just Aero 3."

Ironic that you say:

Please don't strawman.

When you're putting words in my mouth about "add a lot of damage buttons or interactivity". You're intentionally weakening my position to attack that instead, which is most definitely a strawman. I've said previously that I'd be happy with just two, TWO damage buttons on WHM. That isn't "a lot of damage buttons or interactivity", that's one more than Aero III.

This is why people don't think you're arguing in good faith here. It sounds hollow whenever you say you want a good faith discussion.

Good grief can we please keep the post lengths down? It's exhausting.

[Aravell]

Snip

I was under the impression that you wanted a discussion, so I asked you to clarify some points so we could have a discussion. But you only want me to say "I see your point, but I disagree"? Ok then.

I see your point, but I disagree.

Also, it's hilarious that you think I have a static because I only mentioned reclears. I cleared the first 3 floors of savage purely through PF and P10S took me 10 hours, thank you very much. I also tend to do some community service where I join random PFs and try and get them some clears, but thank you for painting me as a toxic elitist that wants to gatekeep the poor, downtrodden PF players.