Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Veritas-Ancora]

Nah I’m good. Keep things the way they are. Bad enough trying to get healers to heal with just one dps skill spam. I can’t imagine the disaster it would be if they gave us more dps skills again.

Yeah I agree with this. I've watched 10 years of people going back and forth on this wanting _____ without compromise and Yoshi P has broken his back several times bending over for people.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah I agree with this. I've watched 10 years of people going back and forth on this wanting _____ without compromise and Yoshi P has broken his back several times bending over for people.

Given that the number of people incapable of healing under any kind of pressure has only increased since increasingly dumbing down healing... it's hard to give any positive sort of credit for bending in an utterly wrong direction.

[Renathras]

And tank is also not that role.

And I'd be fine with a tank that just has one spam damage button, one upkeep buff, an oGCD attack, an oGCD burst buff, and Primal Rend. So this is fine.

The point is, there was an analogy and that's the correct way to view it.

Also, when did I ever say "Non DPS role"? Did I not literally say "Now, it's fine, then, to offer Wi Sports as one of the options (e.g. SGE that heals by doing damage)." Did you not read that part of my post? I see you removed that line from the quote box. Why's that?

Just because the name says "healer" doesn't mean the role is made to just heal and it would be great if the game was more open about it.

The healers aren't "just heal" now? Mission accomplished!

Also, where did I say "X role should only do Y"?

Like, both of you guys are arguing against positions you just made up. Maybe that's why you guys disagree with me all the time - you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with your own made up positions that you superimpose on top of me.

I mean yes sure, there could be plenty of things...

I used to worry about this a lot more, but then EW PLD came out.
...hear me out.

In EW, they removed Clemency breaking combos. Though it's hit and miss where they do this (RDM's combo is broken by any spell casting, including Vercure or Verraise). Personally, I'd RATHER have a 1-2-3 than a DoT, but different people have different preferences.

Hence why I think the idea should be to all make them different. I hate RDM these days. It uses a priority system. I honestly find GNB easier to play than WAR for this same reason; with GNB, I know where in my rotation/cycle I am because it's pretty rigid. DRG works the same way. I also REALLY hate MNK and it uses a priority system based on where you are in the rotation when things come up.

Short version: Not everyone likes priority systems, either. The goal should be make each of the healers different, that way, if people don't like one thing, they have an out/alternative. I think this is the problem with healers right now as well. For all the people asking for all the healers to change, we might not be at that point if they hadn't gutted SB SCH and AST when they made ShB WHM. Most people saw the WHM changes as a positive, but there was tremendous negativity due to the SCH/AST changes that has persisted to this day and spread. If SCH and AST weren't changed from SB to ShB, most people would have seen the WHM change as a positive, people that didn't like its rotation would have stuck with SCH for more DPS mental load, and everyone would be happy(ier) now today.

I'm just pointing out that that logic doesn't make much sense to me. I'd prefer more healing as healer but we all know we'll never get that. lol On a similar note, I want aggro management and positioning back. Both would give me something to do other than AoE #1 & #2 spam. You can tell the game was designed with that in mind but MMO players are so used to mediocrity it's funny. lol

This guy gets it.

[Sebazy]

It's a shame FFXIV's net code is so abysmally sloppy, as one complete left of field avenue to explore would be abilities to actively counter incoming attacks such as timed shields and barriers that get significant bonuses for being correctly timed. If the pay off could be big enough that it was worthwhile over simply smashing glare as fast as the GCD allows then that's an instant huge shakeup to the current gameplay loop right there. Drop it in a reasonably short cooldown so that it's frequent enough to be impactful but not causing us to stand around doing waiting for something to counter and IMO it'd be a neat addition.

We kind of almost had a very small indie version of it in the past with PLD but it'd be nice to see it done properly assuming SE ever managed to get things tight enough that it would actually work consistently and feel good across the sort of ping ranges seen outside of the JP homeland.

Perhaps it's time for SE to implement hold skills?

[AnotherPerson]

To be fair, tanks gain aggro by attacking, while healers get aggro by healing. That's how it works. You can't just "well if healers don't attack, neither should tanks then".

The problem is not "well if healers don't attack, neither should tanks then." Then problem is "Healers can end up with so much downtime that they're able to spend nearly the entire fight spamming one filler dps button and raising the healing requirements can only work up to a certain extent before excluding people who can't manage healing at that level."

No, you can just multiply 10x aggro generation on tank DPS skill on top of whatever it is currently and remove DPS skills from each expansion - Remove primal rend, remove Fell Cleave, remove all those "DPS skills". All you need is Heavy swing (WAR) / Fast Blade (PLD) / Hard Slash (DRK) / Keen Edge (GNB) as your Single Target Filler Damage and Overpower / Total Eclipse / Unleash / Demon Slice as your filler AoE. All of them just gets the trait upgrade on par with healer filler DPS upgrade. You don't need a damage gauge. You can get aggro with oGCD AoE skills instead. Your gameplay can be oGCDs that generate aggro instead of DPS because the boss can just get one skill that lowers tank aggro and uses it every 30 seconds. There, problem solved.

That's literally the healer equivalent on 'DPS skills'. The bare minimum. That's all you need in the DPS category as a tank. Take the Primal Rend, Fell Cleave, Chaotic Cyclone, Burst Strike, Sonic Blade, Gnashing Fang Combo, Continuation, Blasting Zone, Bloodfest, Flood of Darkness, Edge of Darkness, Blood Weapon, Salted Earth, Carve and Split, Quietus, Delirium, Living Shadow, Shadowbringer, Circle of Scorn, Goring Blade, Requiescat, Holy Spirit, Holy Circle, Atonement, Expacion, and Confiteor combo out of the game because those are all not necessary on "Tank aggro". Replace it with 100x aggro generation for all those tanks who somehow still fail to keep aggro.

The lack of DPS is made up for your filler getting stronger. That's literally it. You don't need anything else as a tank because tanks aren't a DPS. If there's any concessions that need to be made because you're a tank and need a gap closer to stay in melee range, they can all keep Plunge / Intervene / Onslaught / Rough Divide, except they now do 0 damage so it can be a fully fleshed out mobility skill instead of being a pesky "DPS skill". Please now enjoy spamming your filler skill until the boss dies and the trash pack dies because DPS is not your concern, ensuring you have lots of aggro is.

GNB should be the DPS tank you say? Well, just look at Sage. It's the "DPS by healing" healer, but the DPS side is virtually the same as any other healer. If you want a skill like Toxikon, then you can just get Lightning Shot to do the same DPS as your ST filler every 30 to 60 seconds. Clearly no issues with the gameplay and every tank wouldn't have a problem with it. /s

It even hurt to write this because of how backwards design it is on tank gameplay once you go back to doing MSQ and side content that doesn't necessarily require a party.

[ty_taurus]

And I'd be fine with a tank that just has one spam damage button, one upkeep buff, an oGCD attack, an oGCD burst buff, and Primal Rend. So this is fine.

The point is, there was an analogy and that's the correct way to view it.

Also, when did I ever say "Non DPS role"? Did I not literally say "Now, it's fine, then, to offer Wi Sports as one of the options (e.g. SGE that heals by doing damage)." Did you not read that part of my post? I see you removed that line from the quote box. Why's that?

Because I had no interest in partaking in the hobby analogy discussion and it wasn't what I was addressing. All I was addressing was that this mentality of 'healers are not DPS, therefore, they should not have DPS beyond the bare minimum necessary for getting through solo' that I have seen regurgitated by mulitple people in different ways over the years is inconsistent. Because no one says that about tanks. Tanks do not need anything more than the bare minimum to function, so where is the person crying 'I play tank because I want to tank!' when someone talks about adding a new attack to a tank? Where is the person that goes 'I don't want attacks on my tank. If I wanted to DPS, I'd play DPS'?

I want consistency. If the way healers are currently treated is the "correct" way, then I want the same for tanks. If the way tanks are treated is the "correct" way, then I want the same for healers. That's all.

[Renathras]

Because I had no interest in partaking in the hobby analogy discussion and it wasn't what I was addressing. All I was addressing was that this mentality of 'healers are not DPS, therefore, they should not have DPS beyond the bare minimum necessary for getting through solo' that I have seen regurgitated by mulitple people in different ways over the years is inconsistent. Because no one says that about tanks. Tanks do not need anything more than the bare minimum to function, so where is the person crying 'I play tank because I want to tank!' when someone talks about adding a new attack to a tank? Where is the person that goes 'I don't want attacks on my tank. If I wanted to DPS, I'd play DPS'?

I want consistency. If the way healers are currently treated is the "correct" way, then I want the same for tanks. If the way tanks are treated is the "correct" way, then I want the same for healers. That's all.

Then why'd you reply to me?

Because (a) that is what I WAS talking about and (b) because I didn't have "this mentality of 'healers are not DPS, therefore, they should not have DPS beyond the bare minimum".

The "bare minimum" for WHM would be having Holy (or Glare, but Holy is useful in AOE as well as single target) and literally nothing else. Glare, Dia, Misery, and Assize are not needed. And that's not counting Presence of Mind and that Swiftcast can be used as a DPS gain. A single spell that does damage is all you need to get through solo content. So we already have more than "the bare minimum".

Also, Tanks with cast time spells? Yeah, that'll work really well with positioning bosses.

Healers aren't DPSers, but Tanks are also not Healers, nor Healers Tanks. What's next, do Healers need an invuln because Tanks have them? Do Healers need a Taunt because Tanks have them? No? Why not? Because they are different roles and thus have different needs and focuses, right?

.

Again, I'm not now - nor have I ever - argued for Healers to have no DPS abilties or "the bare minimum" (of just one single) DPS ability. Ever. I've even outright argued AGAINST people who pitched that idea, either seriously or in mockery.

I also, as you know, stand for a position where a couple of Healers get more damage buttons and rotations, specifically for people that want that. In fact, I take the exact opposite of your "consistency" approach, other than I think every role should have at least one easy and at least one complex offering.

Though now that I think of it...I wonder what the damage button difference is across TANKS.

PLD: 17 (20 if you count Swords separate), 15 for single-target (boss) fights (e.g. not counting AOE rotation), 14 not counting Shield Bash
1-2-3, Atonement, Intervene, Holy Spirit, Expiacion, Circle of Scorn, Fight or Fight, Requiescat, Goring Blade, Confiteor, Shield Lob, Shield Bash, Total Eclipse, Prominence, Holy Circle

WAR: 15 (17 if you count Infuriated spenders separate), 11 for single-target (boss) fights
1-2-3, Storm's Eye, Tomahawk, Fell Cleave, Primal Rend, Inner Release, Infuriate, Upheaval, Orogeny, Onslaught, Overpower, Mythril Tempest, Decimate

DRK: 17 (don't play it so not sure but I think that also includes 3 AOE rotation buttons, so that comes down to 14 for single-target? Though I think they also have a couple "X replaces Y" buttons, I'm not sure which they are)
1-2-3, Edge of Shadow, Plunge, Bloodspiller, Blood Weapon, Carve and Spit, Living Shadow, Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain, Shadowbringer, Unmend, Quietus, Unleash, Stalwart Soul, Flood of Shadow

GNB: 17 (21 if counting the Continuations as 4 different things), 14 for single-target
1-2-3, Sonic Break, Rough Divide, Blasting Zone, Double Down, Bow Shock, Burst Strike, Gnashing Fang, Continuation, Bloodfest, No Mercy, Lightning Shot, Demon Slice, Demon Slaughter, Fated Circle

So there's a spread of 11-15 (difference of 4) between the low and high end for single target, and...that spread is similar for including AOE of 15-17, or 17-21 if including the "X replaces Y". Meaning a wider spread from "least DPS buttons to most DPS buttons" than Healers, where the spread is, what...1?

WHM: 5 for single target NOT including Swiftcast or Thin Air or Solace/Rapture, 9 if including them, 6 if just the base single-target + Holy, 10 if everything + Holy
Glare, Dia, Assize, Misery, Presence of Mind, Swiftcast (arguably), Thin Air (laughably), Solace/Rapture (by proxy), and Holy

SCH: 4 NOT including Chain or Dissipation, 6 if including them, 7 if including Art
Broil, Biolysis, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Art of War, Chain Strategem (technically a burst damage CD), Dissipation (in practice)

AST: 3 used in single target directly dealing damage, 5 if we count the burst CDs, 8 if we count Cards, 6 if we count single target + Gravity, 9 if we count everything + Gravity
Malific, Dia, Earthly Star, Gravity, Minor Arcana (sometimes), Draw/Play (if counting), Astrodyne (if counting), Divination (if counting as burst)

SGE: 5 used in single-target, 6 if we also count Dyskrasia, 8 if we count the shields to break for Toxicons.
Dosis, Eukrasia Dosis, Plegma, Toxicon, Pneuma, EuPrognosis/Diagnosis (IF we counted Solace/Rapture), Dyskrasia

This gets us a spread of 3-5 for single target and 7-10 if we count everything (note for the Tanks I was counting everything, including things that don't directly do damage like Infuriate...not sure I counted Blackest Night for DRK, I suppose you could add that?)

.

Not really making a point here, just was curious and using this to write them down.

EDIT:

Though on reading...that makes WHM only 2 less than WAR on single target fights IF you do count all their abilities (3 if you don't count Thin Air, 5 if you don't count Solace/Rapture), though at that point, we have to talk about if things like Tomahawk should count. But it's still interesting that WHM is already the most DPS-loaded of the Healers any way you look at it.

I suppose the closest "point" being made here is "they don't all need to be the same". Obviously, the spread for DPS Jobs is even wider (SMN being the lowest and whatever that highest one being something like 8 more, NIN or DRG, maybe...? I'd have to look up that thread again.)

[ty_taurus]

Because of this sentence:

Now, if we had roles of Tank, Healer, and Support, where there was no dedicated DPS role, then sure. But we aren't in that game. We have three roles, one of which is DPS. And healer is not that role.

[Renathras]

Because of this sentence:

And where in that post did it say "Healers should either have only 1 or only 0 DPS buttons"?

[ty_taurus]

And where in that post did it say "Healers should either have only 1 or only 0 DPS buttons"?

You didn't. Where in my post did I say "Renthras is saying Healers should either have only 1 or only 0 DPS buttons?"

Idk why you're hounding me over nothing. I don't like that original sentiment because it's not fair and not consistent. That's all I said.