Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Payadopa]

Is it even worth it to go down this rabbit hole? I don't want to remove attacks from tanks out of what seems to be someone's interpretation of the healer game design (which is not even aligned with the latest healer) , nor do I want to remove attacks from healers.

I'm just pointing out that that logic doesn't make much sense to me. I'd prefer more healing as healer but we all know we'll never get that. lol On a similar note, I want aggro management and positioning back. Both would give me something to do other than AoE #1 & #2 spam. You can tell the game was designed with that in mind but MMO players are so used to mediocrity it's funny. lol

[Renathras]

And tank is also not that role.

And I'd be fine with a tank that just has one spam damage button, one upkeep buff, an oGCD attack, an oGCD burst buff, and Primal Rend. So this is fine.

The point is, there was an analogy and that's the correct way to view it.

Also, when did I ever say "Non DPS role"? Did I not literally say "Now, it's fine, then, to offer Wi Sports as one of the options (e.g. SGE that heals by doing damage)." Did you not read that part of my post? I see you removed that line from the quote box. Why's that?

Just because the name says "healer" doesn't mean the role is made to just heal and it would be great if the game was more open about it.

The healers aren't "just heal" now? Mission accomplished!

Also, where did I say "X role should only do Y"?

Like, both of you guys are arguing against positions you just made up. Maybe that's why you guys disagree with me all the time - you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with your own made up positions that you superimpose on top of me.

I mean yes sure, there could be plenty of things...

I used to worry about this a lot more, but then EW PLD came out.
...hear me out.

In EW, they removed Clemency breaking combos. Though it's hit and miss where they do this (RDM's combo is broken by any spell casting, including Vercure or Verraise). Personally, I'd RATHER have a 1-2-3 than a DoT, but different people have different preferences.

Hence why I think the idea should be to all make them different. I hate RDM these days. It uses a priority system. I honestly find GNB easier to play than WAR for this same reason; with GNB, I know where in my rotation/cycle I am because it's pretty rigid. DRG works the same way. I also REALLY hate MNK and it uses a priority system based on where you are in the rotation when things come up.

Short version: Not everyone likes priority systems, either. The goal should be make each of the healers different, that way, if people don't like one thing, they have an out/alternative. I think this is the problem with healers right now as well. For all the people asking for all the healers to change, we might not be at that point if they hadn't gutted SB SCH and AST when they made ShB WHM. Most people saw the WHM changes as a positive, but there was tremendous negativity due to the SCH/AST changes that has persisted to this day and spread. If SCH and AST weren't changed from SB to ShB, most people would have seen the WHM change as a positive, people that didn't like its rotation would have stuck with SCH for more DPS mental load, and everyone would be happy(ier) now today.

I'm just pointing out that that logic doesn't make much sense to me. I'd prefer more healing as healer but we all know we'll never get that. lol On a similar note, I want aggro management and positioning back. Both would give me something to do other than AoE #1 & #2 spam. You can tell the game was designed with that in mind but MMO players are so used to mediocrity it's funny. lol

This guy gets it.

[ty_taurus]

And I'd be fine with a tank that just has one spam damage button, one upkeep buff, an oGCD attack, an oGCD burst buff, and Primal Rend. So this is fine.

The point is, there was an analogy and that's the correct way to view it.

Also, when did I ever say "Non DPS role"? Did I not literally say "Now, it's fine, then, to offer Wi Sports as one of the options (e.g. SGE that heals by doing damage)." Did you not read that part of my post? I see you removed that line from the quote box. Why's that?

Because I had no interest in partaking in the hobby analogy discussion and it wasn't what I was addressing. All I was addressing was that this mentality of 'healers are not DPS, therefore, they should not have DPS beyond the bare minimum necessary for getting through solo' that I have seen regurgitated by mulitple people in different ways over the years is inconsistent. Because no one says that about tanks. Tanks do not need anything more than the bare minimum to function, so where is the person crying 'I play tank because I want to tank!' when someone talks about adding a new attack to a tank? Where is the person that goes 'I don't want attacks on my tank. If I wanted to DPS, I'd play DPS'?

I want consistency. If the way healers are currently treated is the "correct" way, then I want the same for tanks. If the way tanks are treated is the "correct" way, then I want the same for healers. That's all.

[Renathras]

Because I had no interest in partaking in the hobby analogy discussion and it wasn't what I was addressing. All I was addressing was that this mentality of 'healers are not DPS, therefore, they should not have DPS beyond the bare minimum necessary for getting through solo' that I have seen regurgitated by mulitple people in different ways over the years is inconsistent. Because no one says that about tanks. Tanks do not need anything more than the bare minimum to function, so where is the person crying 'I play tank because I want to tank!' when someone talks about adding a new attack to a tank? Where is the person that goes 'I don't want attacks on my tank. If I wanted to DPS, I'd play DPS'?

I want consistency. If the way healers are currently treated is the "correct" way, then I want the same for tanks. If the way tanks are treated is the "correct" way, then I want the same for healers. That's all.

Then why'd you reply to me?

Because (a) that is what I WAS talking about and (b) because I didn't have "this mentality of 'healers are not DPS, therefore, they should not have DPS beyond the bare minimum".

The "bare minimum" for WHM would be having Holy (or Glare, but Holy is useful in AOE as well as single target) and literally nothing else. Glare, Dia, Misery, and Assize are not needed. And that's not counting Presence of Mind and that Swiftcast can be used as a DPS gain. A single spell that does damage is all you need to get through solo content. So we already have more than "the bare minimum".

Also, Tanks with cast time spells? Yeah, that'll work really well with positioning bosses.

Healers aren't DPSers, but Tanks are also not Healers, nor Healers Tanks. What's next, do Healers need an invuln because Tanks have them? Do Healers need a Taunt because Tanks have them? No? Why not? Because they are different roles and thus have different needs and focuses, right?

.

Again, I'm not now - nor have I ever - argued for Healers to have no DPS abilties or "the bare minimum" (of just one single) DPS ability. Ever. I've even outright argued AGAINST people who pitched that idea, either seriously or in mockery.

I also, as you know, stand for a position where a couple of Healers get more damage buttons and rotations, specifically for people that want that. In fact, I take the exact opposite of your "consistency" approach, other than I think every role should have at least one easy and at least one complex offering.

Though now that I think of it...I wonder what the damage button difference is across TANKS.

PLD: 17 (20 if you count Swords separate), 15 for single-target (boss) fights (e.g. not counting AOE rotation), 14 not counting Shield Bash
1-2-3, Atonement, Intervene, Holy Spirit, Expiacion, Circle of Scorn, Fight or Fight, Requiescat, Goring Blade, Confiteor, Shield Lob, Shield Bash, Total Eclipse, Prominence, Holy Circle

WAR: 15 (17 if you count Infuriated spenders separate), 11 for single-target (boss) fights
1-2-3, Storm's Eye, Tomahawk, Fell Cleave, Primal Rend, Inner Release, Infuriate, Upheaval, Orogeny, Onslaught, Overpower, Mythril Tempest, Decimate

DRK: 17 (don't play it so not sure but I think that also includes 3 AOE rotation buttons, so that comes down to 14 for single-target? Though I think they also have a couple "X replaces Y" buttons, I'm not sure which they are)
1-2-3, Edge of Shadow, Plunge, Bloodspiller, Blood Weapon, Carve and Spit, Living Shadow, Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain, Shadowbringer, Unmend, Quietus, Unleash, Stalwart Soul, Flood of Shadow

GNB: 17 (21 if counting the Continuations as 4 different things), 14 for single-target
1-2-3, Sonic Break, Rough Divide, Blasting Zone, Double Down, Bow Shock, Burst Strike, Gnashing Fang, Continuation, Bloodfest, No Mercy, Lightning Shot, Demon Slice, Demon Slaughter, Fated Circle

So there's a spread of 11-15 (difference of 4) between the low and high end for single target, and...that spread is similar for including AOE of 15-17, or 17-21 if including the "X replaces Y". Meaning a wider spread from "least DPS buttons to most DPS buttons" than Healers, where the spread is, what...1?

WHM: 5 for single target NOT including Swiftcast or Thin Air or Solace/Rapture, 9 if including them, 6 if just the base single-target + Holy, 10 if everything + Holy
Glare, Dia, Assize, Misery, Presence of Mind, Swiftcast (arguably), Thin Air (laughably), Solace/Rapture (by proxy), and Holy

SCH: 4 NOT including Chain or Dissipation, 6 if including them, 7 if including Art
Broil, Biolysis, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Art of War, Chain Strategem (technically a burst damage CD), Dissipation (in practice)

AST: 3 used in single target directly dealing damage, 5 if we count the burst CDs, 8 if we count Cards, 6 if we count single target + Gravity, 9 if we count everything + Gravity
Malific, Dia, Earthly Star, Gravity, Minor Arcana (sometimes), Draw/Play (if counting), Astrodyne (if counting), Divination (if counting as burst)

SGE: 5 used in single-target, 6 if we also count Dyskrasia, 8 if we count the shields to break for Toxicons.
Dosis, Eukrasia Dosis, Plegma, Toxicon, Pneuma, EuPrognosis/Diagnosis (IF we counted Solace/Rapture), Dyskrasia

This gets us a spread of 3-5 for single target and 7-10 if we count everything (note for the Tanks I was counting everything, including things that don't directly do damage like Infuriate...not sure I counted Blackest Night for DRK, I suppose you could add that?)

.

Not really making a point here, just was curious and using this to write them down.

EDIT:

Though on reading...that makes WHM only 2 less than WAR on single target fights IF you do count all their abilities (3 if you don't count Thin Air, 5 if you don't count Solace/Rapture), though at that point, we have to talk about if things like Tomahawk should count. But it's still interesting that WHM is already the most DPS-loaded of the Healers any way you look at it.

I suppose the closest "point" being made here is "they don't all need to be the same". Obviously, the spread for DPS Jobs is even wider (SMN being the lowest and whatever that highest one being something like 8 more, NIN or DRG, maybe...? I'd have to look up that thread again.)