Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[Renathras]

I think the analogy falls apart a bit when you consider that the four healers are part of the same role, therefore they have to be related. Probably makes more sense to say that each role is a hobby, like 'sports' or 'video games' or 'reading books', and within that category you have different things. Like the four healers can be four different sports, and some sports involve a ball, some don't (running/highjump/longjump), but at the end of the day they're all linked in that they require some amount of physical exertion, like how healers have 'healing' as their core. And regardless of the sport, all of them have a fair amount of depth to 'master' said sport. Pretty sure most people agree that the four healers should feel different in their damage, there's just disagreement on why one should be left as it is

Well, here's the thing, if we stick to the analogy, then the thing they're part of is videogames.

So you asking them to do sports would be you asking them to do a thing outside of their role. At the end of the day, DPSing IS outside of the healer role itself. We have an entire role devoted to that.

Now, if we had roles of Tank, Healer, and Support, where there was no dedicated DPS role, then sure. But we aren't in that game. We have three roles, one of which is DPS. And healer is not that role.

Now, it's fine, then, to offer Wi Sports as one of the options (e.g. SGE that heals by doing damage). But it shouldn't be all of them. Since the role is videogames, not sports.

[ty_taurus]

Well, here's the thing, if we stick to the analogy, then the thing they're part of is videogames.

So you asking them to do sports would be you asking them to do a thing outside of their role. At the end of the day, DPSing IS outside of the healer role itself. We have an entire role devoted to that.

Now, if we had roles of Tank, Healer, and Support, where there was no dedicated DPS role, then sure. But we aren't in that game. We have three roles, one of which is DPS. And healer is not that role.

And tank is also not that role. Tanks don't need anything more than what healers have for DPS, yet they do. There is a disconnect between the way the two non-DPS roles are treated, which means one of them is failing to respect the rules of their role. Either healers are failing to meet a sufficient amount of DPS variety that is acceptable for non DPS roles as established by tanks, or tanks are grossly overstepping their acceptable amount of DPS variety.

If the rule is that a Non DPS role should have a basic single target attack, AoE attack, and 1-2 additional tools for allowing them to function in solo content, but anything else is not permitted for crossing over into DPS role responsibilities, then tanks have failed and should have their DPS actions culled.

[WaxSw]

Just because the name says "healer" doesn't mean the role is made to just heal and it would be great if the game was more open about it.

Damaging and non healing actions that benefit the party (buffs,CC...) have always been part of the role simply because the limited utility heals (as hp is binary and damage taken is a limited resource) and any decent healer can attest to that. In XIV, a game with so many dps checks that can't be cleared without healer dps, a game scripted in nature that has been built with the idea of healers dealing damage, disregarding the non healing side as something "not for healers" is a mistake as big as saying that dps shoudn't help with mit or tanks shoudn't deal any damage.

This reductionist view of X role should only do Y only hurts the playerbase. It grows lazy players that refuse to see the big picture of a fight and limits their usefulness, because, no matter how they try to spin it, a healer that keeps the party alive and does damage will always be more useful than one that don't.

[Sylvain]

For example, _A_ healer Job having a priority system makes sense. But all of them having it? Then we're in the same situation we're in now. The problem, I think, is all the healers' downtime being more or less the same. Going from one same to a different same doesn't fix that. There needs to be an outlet for people that don't like what the others offer. And just having a different priority system doesn't help when there are people who don't like priority systems.
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I mean yes sure, there could be plenty of things. The card is different from the lilies which are different from the sage system. I mean there are plenty of things that could be done. But I meant that an actual 123 rotation might not be desirable as, first it would be interuppted (i mean the flow) randomly there and there by having to heal. Also, 123 would take space on the bar and do very little in term of breaking the 11111 monotony. So unless they'd do something where you button changes, that something to be mindfull about, button bloat.

Ultimately for instance, caster are based on a priority system and have no strict rotation, and they all feel quite different from one another. (not involving difficulty here).

And we're not talking about making 4 new dps rotation, we're talking about adding 2-3 buttons to each healers to end the eternel complaint of "1buttonspamjob". I feel there was a step in the good direction with things like blood lilies. We just need a bit more. (and a SCH rework)

And tank is also not that role. Tanks don't need anything more than what healers have for DPS, yet they do. There is a disconnect between the way the two non-DPS roles are treated, which means one of them is failing to respect the rules of their role. Either healers are failing to meet a sufficient amount of DPS variety that is acceptable for non DPS roles as established by tanks, or tanks are grossly overstepping their acceptable amount of DPS variety.

If the rule is that a Non DPS role should have a basic single target attack, AoE attack, and 1-2 additional tools for allowing them to function in solo content, but anything else is not permitted for crossing over into DPS role responsibilities, then tanks have failed and should have their DPS actions culled.

Interesting take, I for one believe they should have indeed more tools to mitigate damage as I feel tank are currently too focused on DPS.

[ty_taurus]

Interesting take, I for one believe they should have indeed more tools to mitigate damage as I feel tank are currently too focused on DPS.

Interestingly enough, while there is a complaint that tanks are not tanking enough and have lost many of their responsibilities, that actually has nothing to do with their higher focus on DPS as tanks.

Enmity has been completely simplified into just ‘is your tank stance on?’ And in harder content, Provoke and Shirk for tank swaps. That’s it. Ironically, the reduction in aggro management is also associated with a loss of DPS variety in the removal of aggro combos. The removal of DPS and healer aggro reduction is something I would say isn’t a huge deal in that regard. They could’ve made aggro uniquely a mechanic that tanks handle by themselves rather than depend on other players to use their own cooldowns, but it was simplified on them too to the point where it’s an automatic process. The only influence DPS has had on the process was the dropping of their aggro combo to make their only combo, the higher damage one, always the right answer. But they could’ve addressed that in other ways, such as making aggro attacks just as strong but come at a gauge cost, or even MP. Imagine if the Oath Gauge was something you used to manage not only Shelton, but also OGCD Flash, for example.

But even more than enmity, boss positioning has been almost completely deleted, and that has nothing to do with the tank kits and everything to do with fight design. Tanks getting new parts to their DPS gameplay every expansion has not actually been the reason why they’ve lost responsibility.

[Payadopa]

If the rule is that a Non DPS role should have a basic single target attack, AoE attack, and 1-2 additional tools for allowing them to function in solo content, but anything else is not permitted for crossing over into DPS role responsibilities, then tanks have failed and should have their DPS actions culled.

To be fair, tanks gain aggro by attacking, while healers get aggro by healing. That's how it works. You can't just "well if healers don't attack, neither should tanks then".

[IDontPetLalas]

Well, here's the thing, if we stick to the analogy, then the thing they're part of is videogames.

So you asking them to do sports would be you asking them to do a thing outside of their role. At the end of the day, DPSing IS outside of the healer role itself. We have an entire role devoted to that.

Now, if we had roles of Tank, Healer, and Support, where there was no dedicated DPS role, then sure. But we aren't in that game. We have three roles, one of which is DPS. And healer is not that role.

Now, it's fine, then, to offer Wi Sports as one of the options (e.g. SGE that heals by doing damage). But it shouldn't be all of them. Since the role is videogames, not sports.

Have you been sleeping somewhere, since healers have had more to do than heal in multiple games, including this one? (Rift, Everquest, SWTOR, Aion, etc) all of those games either had healers who healed through damage and/or had specs , so that healers could go full DPS or hybrid spec for solo or groups.

So now, in this game, we have a healer that the game designer declared "heals through damage' i.e Sage- so, yes healers do damage.

[IDontPetLalas]

To be fair, tanks gain aggro by attacking, while healers get aggro by healing. That's how it works. You can't just "well if healers don't attack, neither should tanks then".

Is it even worth it to go down this rabbit hole? I don't want to remove attacks from tanks out of what seems to be someone's interpretation of the healer game design (which is not even aligned with the latest healer) , nor do I want to remove attacks from healers.

[Payadopa]

Is it even worth it to go down this rabbit hole? I don't want to remove attacks from tanks out of what seems to be someone's interpretation of the healer game design (which is not even aligned with the latest healer) , nor do I want to remove attacks from healers.

I'm just pointing out that that logic doesn't make much sense to me. I'd prefer more healing as healer but we all know we'll never get that. lol On a similar note, I want aggro management and positioning back. Both would give me something to do other than AoE #1 & #2 spam. You can tell the game was designed with that in mind but MMO players are so used to mediocrity it's funny. lol

[ty_taurus]

I'm just pointing out that that logic doesn't make much sense to me. I'd prefer more healing as healer but we all know we'll never get that. lol On a similar note, I want aggro management and positioning back. Both would give me something to do other than AoE #1 & #2 spam. You can tell the game was designed with that in mind but MMO players are so used to mediocrity it's funny. lol

But you aren’t applying that logic fairly. Healers “aren’t allowed” to have more than the barest minimum because “we aren’t the DPS role” apparently.

So if that logic applies to healers, then it should also apply to tanks, meaning tanks shouldn’t be allowed to have more than the barest minimums as well, or in other words, 1 single target attack, 1 aoe attack, 1 DoT, probably 1 ranged attack for uptime, and 1 bonus button so they aren’t all literally exactly the same.

Your logic assumes that point means tanks get no attacks at all and thus cannot deal any damage whatsoever, but that’s not a charitable take on the argument, because that also is not treating the tank role fairly with the healer role. You’re taking even more away from the tanks than what the healers have.

If Warrior has Storm’s Eye, Storm’s Path, Mythril Tempest, Tomahawk, and maybe Fell Cleave on a 40 second cooldown, why does Warrior need anything else? If you think they need more in order to maintain aggro, then you have no idea how aggro works. And that’s ignoring the fact that you don’t need to deal damage in order to generate aggro in the first place. Flash used to be a thing you know, not to mention Provoke and Shirk which do exist.