Dark Knight Megathread

[RyuDragnier]

My issue with removing this aspect of TBN, then TBN basically just becomes a better version of Thrill of Battle, with the only notable upsides being its cooldown and the niche benefits of shield hp blanking certain mechanics/debuffs.
It would also make it a use on CD skill if the MP cost was also removed from it, and honestly might even be a bit overpowered with a 15s CD giving DRK the ability to eat normal attacks almost indefinitely.

I'd say TBN being removed from the MP cost and becoming a 25s cooldown without the DA would balance it then. You already said it's stronger than Thrill, so that shield every 25s isn't gamebreaking.

[Oizen]

I'd say TBN being removed from the MP cost and becoming a 25s cooldown without the DA would balance it then. You already said it's stronger than Thrill, so that shield every 25s isn't gamebreaking.

In that case I'd actually view it as a pretty big nerf considering the thing that makes TBN so good is its flexibility and low cooldown.

[Shurrikhan]

Ultimately, this is what I actually want. I can brew up ideas on how to keep it's current form for days, but Dark Arts could and should come back as its own standalone ability, and at this point, TBN being on a 15s CD be damned.

I could hardly disagree more. Dropping its maximum frequency by 40% and/by removing a key component to its engagement? That'd be a considerable nerf to DRK's unique functionality, its power, and its gameplay. Hard pass.

I could see shifting that flexibility elsewhere or providing more means of granularity to it (e.g., assuming we had ways of far more rapidly recovering MP, having TBN consume a minimum of 1500 MP or up to 30% of current MP to provide a barrier of %HP equal to the % of maximum MP consumed, so that one could create anywhere from a 15% to 30% HP shield), but I see no problem with using a softer means of frequency-constraint atop a far shorter cooldown, in place of using just the standard/homogenous rigid 25s recast time.

[RyuDragnier]

In that case I'd actually view it as a pretty big nerf considering the thing that makes TBN so good is its flexibility and low cooldown.

I personally despise TBN as it is now because it's the one thing holding DRK back because, as everybody keeps pointing out, it's the "best" unique due to its low cooldown. Remove that low cooldown, and suddenly it's no longer the best. Hell, it'd likely result in DRK getting actual things it needs without TBN being the excuse for why it gets nothing.

[DRKoftheAzure]

??? Dark Arts isn't tied to Darkside, though. Its indicator is tied to the Blood Gauge, and only for visual convenience.

No the indicator is tied to the "Darkside Gauge" but it to be fair I understand the confusion since most people probably don't even look at job UI elements to begin... which proves my point about pointless UI bloat honestly... though if you're only looking at your hotbar and not the job gauge, I say that the devs failed at making good UI elements for jobs, and thus further proved that not every job needs 1 or 2 cool looking UI elements...

It also has no button; it's purely a TBN secondary frequency-constraining mechanic.

I was talking about Dark Arts BEFORE 5.x onward, A.K.A., Pre-Shadowbringers Dark Arts.

Moreover, if you made a percentile bonus like Hissatsu: Kaiten, then it'd have to be tuned as to only be useful around our most damaging weaponskills, Bloodspiller/Quietus, which means it'd see use only...
[A] as a brainless bundle (always hit DA before Bloodspiller), and
[B] very infrequently outside of the likes of a Delirium-based Bloodspiller-spam. (The natural frequency of Bloodspiller is just 2 in 17 GCDs.)

Not just weaponskills, but high damaging abilities like Carve and Spit, Salt and Darkness, Edge of Shadow, Shadowbringer, which would probably be better the Hissatsu: Kaiten, but would somehow also justify the long cooldowns of those mentioned abilities, although if it were implemented now, it still wouldn't change the fact that Dark Knight has a boring GCD rotation, unless you put the abilities I just mentioned on the GCD, which would be a band-aid fix to the "Brainless bundle" argument but Dark Knight is pretty brainless to play right now anyway...

I like what Dark Arts currently is, as a way to cast MP skills without spending the MP.
We just need more MP skills, and more ways to get Dark Arts Stacks.

I think the system has a lot of potential and I hope they do something more with it instead of it being the Edge/Flood spam tool

I agree. A lot of potential, but unfortunately the devs would probably squander that potential somehow...

It would be interesting, although possibly weird to balance, if dark arts kept the free spell aspect but could be used on things that cost more than tbn.

And that's why the devs will never change how boring Dark Knight plays no matter what level you play at, in more ways than one... would be nice if we didn't have radio silence from the devs and the gave us an explanation that was even REMOTELY believable...

Personally I would like to see dark arts go back to a more toggled version with dark arts on we constantly drain mana our moves add effects or we press it and it halves darksides timer to add special effects to the next move for example; damage reductions on some moves, blind again, barriers on others. It would need some balance checking but it would be a much better way of addressing the Drks lack of self sustain without just giving us self heal and turning us more into warriors.

First off; you got both Darkside and Dark Arts mixed up though I kinda don't blame since it was PROBABLY a long enough time for you to know what the two skills did by themselves but other than that you got MOST of that right.

Second; the special effects thing is... not really a good idea especially if MP generation is going to an issue...

ALSO BRING POWERSLASH ANIMATION BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't care where we have it I just want that animation back it was the most badass animation we had and they yeeted it for no reason

I say bring back enmity combos back for both Warrior AND Dark Knight, introduce the Off Tank and Main Tank roles like they did with Pure Healers and Barrier Healers, and have them be listed as Off Tanks and have Paladin and Gunbreaker be Main Tanks, AND they can still have the enmity toggles.

[Oizen]

I personally despise TBN as it is now because it's the one thing holding DRK back because, as everybody keeps pointing out, it's the "best" unique due to its low cooldown. Remove that low cooldown, and suddenly it's no longer the best. Hell, it'd likely result in DRK getting actual things it needs without TBN being the excuse for why it gets nothing.

Cooldowns are an important part of skill balancing. I get its not particularly flashy but Oblation and Dark Mind are so good because they're on a 60s cd as well.

By extension, Holmgang is considered the best invuln for the same reason. Its not as cool as the other tank's short mits yeah, but 10s off the cooldown allows it to be flexible in and be used in ways the others simply cant be.

[Shurrikhan]

Not just weaponskills, but high damaging abilities like Carve and Spit, Salt and Darkness, Edge of Shadow, Shadowbringer, which would probably be better the Hissatsu: Kaiten, but would somehow also justify the long cooldowns of those mentioned abilities, although if it were implemented now, it still wouldn't change the fact that Dark Knight has a boring GCD rotation, unless you put the abilities I just mentioned on the GCD, which would be a band-aid fix to the "Brainless bundle" argument but Dark Knight is pretty brainless to play right now anyway...

But then you take only the worst of the old DA design, as it becomes obligatory bloat to be attached to certain actions (Bloodspiller, Shadowbringer, Carve and Spit) and avoided on all others because it only gives a percentile damage increase instead of any of its former additional effects.

You'd have your major offensive skills feeling nerfed just to support an extra (bloat) oGCD before each use to empower (un-nerf) them back to what they were... but zero actual decision-making or additional flexibility/versatility.

I say bring back enmity combos back for both Warrior AND Dark Knight, introduce the Off Tank and Main Tank roles like they did with Pure Healers and Barrier Healers, and have them be listed as Off Tanks and have Paladin and Gunbreaker be Main Tanks, AND they can still have the enmity toggles.

Again, though... why? Just... why? There is not a single thing Enmity combos do that Enmity stance toggles don't do at least as well (and far less wastefully). Enmity combos are just not a good use of buttons, however one looks at it/them.

[DRKoftheAzure]

But then you take only the worst of the old DA design, as it becomes obligatory bloat to be attached to certain actions (Bloodspiller, Shadowbringer, Carve and Spit) and avoided on all others because it only gives a percentile damage increase instead of any of its former additional effects.

You'd have your major offensive skills feeling nerfed just to support an extra (bloat) oGCD before each use to empower (un-nerf) them back to what they were... but zero actual decision-making or additional flexibility/versatility.

Once again Dark Arts, is one those things that might be impossible to actually make engaging in its current state unless we rework it from the ground up, or just outright delete the mechanic entirely... and regardless of where this conversation goes, I do not believe there is a right way of actually make making Dark Arts good without at least good chunk of the playerbase that like Dark Arts as a mechanic in its current state being up in arms.

Again, though... why? Just... why? There is not a single thing Enmity combos do that Enmity stance toggles don't do at least as well (and far less wastefully). Enmity combos are just not a good use of buttons, however one looks at it/them.

Neither is the concept of pure healer and barrier healer but the devs set a precedent with that so naturally my expectation is the devs finally telling as which tank are actually supposed be main tank or off tank other taking a guess or scream that every tank plays EXACTLY the same for 3 expansions in a row...

[Zairava]

snip

Me wanting Dark Arts to be like it was prior is nothing more than a want. I already know they aren't going to change it back realistically, and I also know that it isn't the best path forward for the job to actually evolve.

To reiterate, here's most of my post from the page prior.:

What if we brought back Dark Arts as an actual ability, but kept its current form of giving free mp costs?

It would have no mp cost, and can hold up to 2-3 charges. This could be a GCD to prevent clipping (especially in an already oGCD heavy burst) with a short recast (think mudras from Ninja, or Eukrasia). It would function exactly as it does now: as a method of letting you use one offensive mp spender for free [per charge]

TBN would still cost mp, and the shield breaking is what grants charges of Dark Arts, exactly as it does now.

To simplify it this in an outline:
Dark Arts returns as an ability, costs no mp, requires Dark Arts stacks (granted from TBN or otherwise) to use
Dark Arts provides the same effect it does now. It lets you use an offensive ability that costs mp for free
TBN functions identically to how it does now

These modifications would preserve the cost-reward of possibly not gaining a free usage, but also allows you to optimize when and where you wish to use Dark Arts for free expenditure instead of forcing it on the next edge/flood use, ultimately preventing a method of accidental mp overcap when preparing your burst while simultaneously providing player agency on what to use Dark Arts charges on and when.
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On a separate note, I'm not entirely sure how to make another method of granting Dark Arts charges. As a spitball, they could give us a new mp spender on a 30s CD that grants it, but I feel like there's better ways.

This is a pretty good path to take, I feel. It keeps the current effect of Dark Arts while building upon it, making it a central and crucial part of DRK's kit.

They could just give us another charge without making Dark Arts(albeit revised compared to prior to Shadowbringers), but revising it to what I suggested it would be needed for mechanical "depth", if such is the right term here. Engagement might be better. Given that that we want more mp spenders to begin with, this would absolutely provide player agency. (that being, how and what the player decides it is used on.)

To continue, I've tried thinking on a number of methods of how we can have more than just TBN provide Dark Arts charges.

Other defensives costing mp and granting DA wouldn't necessarily work unless it's granted immediately, and no matter how you look at it, it would be seen as offensive tool anyway.
Other mp spenders would only realistically work for more edge/flood spam, as they would very likely be put on a cooldown since otherwise it would be effectively infinite MP..

It's worth mentioning that unless we make these DA charges relatively frequent and add more mp spenders, there is no real management and we still end up at the same place we are now, save them for burst on edge/flood and snore outside of bursts.

So...this led me to another train of thought. Using Blood Gauge spenders. I'll just use Power Slash and Delirium as sample abilities here.

Power Slash:

• Is a GCD
• Does X potency
• Requires 20 Blood Gauge
• Grants one charge of Dark Arts
• 20-30s Cooldown

Delirium:

• remains an oGCD
• Costs 50 Blood Gauge
• Grants one charge of Dark Arts
• 60s Cooldown
  -It's worth noting that Living Shadow would either need it's Gauge cost removed or/and become an MP spender for this version of Delirium to work.-

As for mp spenders...ideas for those are up in the air. Giving Shadowbringer an mp cost as well as Abyssal Drain are a couple I'm in favor of.

[Shurrikhan]

...

So, there are a few things here I'm confused/concerned by.


I.
If the only point of DA-as-an-action would be to nullify the cost of the next ability... is there really any point in spending a button on that? You can as easily just make the cost-nullification automatic and perhaps even conditional (used only if under 60% [two oGCDs' worth of] remaining MP).

If we make it a GCD a la Meditation, then there's more reason for that button... but then you effectively end up with it just being a competitor to Unmend and/or Unleash, either replacing them (especially, when there's more than 1 GCD but less than 2 GCDs time remaining to damage the enemy/enemies) or being made inferior to them. At most, that offers an anti-overclocking option, but not one that's particularly useful to DRK since its ppgcd variance across its combo is already low unless the one extra SE within window would replace a HS with a BS, especially with BS potency already having been further deemphasized in favor of oGCD value in EW.


II.
Though this does apply also to the current version of DA, working around a single-cast cost-nullifier means that we're absolutely stuck with every MP spender costing the exact same amount of MP.

That's not the worst thing to have happen, but it's also far from necessary. Heck, we could have taken the current DA design and just changed it such that mitigation by TBN and Shadow Wall restore %MP equal to their %HP of damage thereby absorbed -- wholly granular. You'd just have a shadowed/"barrier-ed" portion of your MP bar that notes how much additional MP value would be 'free-cast', while your MP text value just shows the combined amounts. Just call that free MP from mitigation "Dark Arts" or "Shadowskin" or what have you and voila: you've no obligation to play around a fixed MP cost for all things.

Exceptions: Technically, if we wanted to use a %current_MP spender (with whatever minimum cost), we could game that a bit with single-cast cost-nullification. Short of that, though, there's no advantage to pigeonholing ourselves in that way.


III.
Finally, let's go over the Power Slash (on CD, via a GCD, spend 20 Blood for potency + free Edge of Shadow / MP spender) and Delirium (per 60s, oGCD, spend 50 Blood for a free Edge of Shadow / MP spender) redesign ideas...

Whatever the potency of Power Slash itself, the biggest thing is that you're trading X% of the benefit of Bloodspiller over your average combo ppgcd... for oGCD potency (an Edge, at minimum). Attaching that Blood cost does (at least) mean (for better or worse) that you can't open with this skill, and have to margin differently (whereas before our margining had to do with odd/even multiples of 50 Blood generated), but... I'm not really getting the appeal of a skill whose value has to be so anchored around "Gives a free Edge of Shadow", when we already have 4 MP spending oGCDs in our immediate opener alone. I'd... much prefer Scourge, for instance, over that.

Similarly, Delirium assumes that Blood must simply be greatly inferior to MP, because you're trading (for this particular example/version) 50% of the one for just 30% of the other. Is that really a desirable balance of / take on our two resources? Do we want Blood to remain that auxiliary and lackluster, let alone become even more secondary to MP?

Honestly, I could see us scrapping Blood outright if we were to sufficiently revamp Darkside and make more interesting use of MP than as a mere DRK-Kenki gauge (without the access to a quick, low-cost gap-closer / backstep), but so long as we're keeping it, I'd rather not see it even more obviously squished into irrelevance in itself. The only reason I was at all okay with Stormblood Delirium was because of it extending Blood Weapon for self-refunding DA-Quietus cheese in large pulls.