The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

[Renathras]

The arguing was starting to get senseless. Although there could be improvements for both sides. Whether people say they agree with it or not, admitting to not reading much of a post you are responding harshly to is not a very good look.

I don't want to hammer the point - but people liking Ty's post suggest it needs to be hammered: Responding to posts without reading them is generally a bad idea, especially if you're offering REBUTTALS to what you DID NOT READ.

Then using this as a defense, and almost a point of pride - using ignorance as pride? - is ridiculous.

Every post I reply to, I read all of, even if it's long. If I don't read the whole thing, I don't offer a rebuttal (but I do more or less always read entire posts before replying to them; it takes less than 5 minutes to read all but the most giga-novel posts). It's not something to take pride in, and isn't a valid defense.

.

As to the rest, you aren't wrong. It's why I often try to include summaries and do cut down a lot of what's in posts. In the case of the above, I was responding to Ty's own points, so my posts were as long as his number of points required.

As to the last bit: More or less. The alternatives/options here are:

1) Not changing Healers at all (this is the default/status quo situation if no compromises are reached).

2) Changing some of the Healers but leaving one alone - probably WHM because it's the most logical, though SGE is the second alternative* - which is also what I call the "Four Healers Model" (we have 4, they can all be different), and Misshapen Chair's suggestion.

3) Adding a new Job branching from CNJ that is what the "complex WHM" people want WHM to be, and otherwise doing (2) - let's call it Geomancer instead of Druid, to avoid any issues in German (lookin' at you, Roe). In this case, White Mage is the "simple" one and Geomancer will be made more complex, as will SCH, AST, and SGE per (2).

4) Adding a new Job branching from CNJ that is a direct copy of current WHM just to free up the "White Mage" Job to be changed. This is somewhat illogical as it's (3) with more work/more steps, but it's an option. In this case, GEO is the "simple" one and WHM will be made more complex, as will SCH, AST, and SGE per (2).

5) Rework the Class system - but only for CNJ - to make it where it's a simple version of WHM while still being a Class but can participate in all content like a Job, then change WHM (and the other 3 Healer Jobs) as per (4) (this will never happen; if we do this for CNJ, then every other Class will be demanding it for them - NINs who prefer Rogue, DRGs who prefer LNC, and so on; it not only requires more coding to do, but would open up a secondary can of worms, and the Devs aren't going to touch that with a 10 foot poll, so this isn't even an option - I'm only presenting it here since it's what Ty and seemingly Roe are proposing, and is utterly impossible in terms of actually being implemented).

6) Add a new Job for ALL FOUR Healers, with one being simple and the other complex so people who like ANY of the Job aesthetics can play them in the simple or complex version, whichever they like best (this will also never happen).

7) Changing all four of the Healers so that none remain with the simple playstyle of today (this is VERY unlikely to happen due to the Devs' direction for the game and how it would alienate current players - AGAIN).

*I say WHM because it's always been the easiest Healer, it starts at level 1 so would be new players' first experience - and as far as all the data and anecdote indicate, a lot of FFXIV players are single player folks' first or second time with an MMO and often their first time in a given role - and its difficulty now is roughly comparable to what it's always been in the game. SGE is the second best choice, if not WHM, because it's only ever existed in the current state (unlike SCH which once had more DoTs or AST which once had more interesting cards), so "staying as it is" isn't losing/persisting in losing something, because it never had anything taken away. It's only ever existed in this state. Also, unlocking near the level cap is, in this sense, a boon, since it means people picking up Healing for the first time as an alt role they want to try out and maybe main, have the least amount of leveling to do. It's not the FIRST/BEST choice, but it's the SECOND best choice.

.

I'd suggest (2) or (3), (4) is just an illogical version of (3) to appease people that want more complex Jobs but specifically want the WHM aesthetic, and (5) is an even more illogical, even more work, version of (4). After all, if we do that for WHM, we'd then need to do it for all four Healers, since we've made the point that AESTHETIC must ALSO be accessible to everyone. Which requires doing either (6) (which won't happen) or (1) (which is the most likely of ANY of these to happen).

(2) makes the most sense by far by most any logic. It requires no new systems be made, it allows for changing several Healer Jobs to appeal to those bored right now, it also leaves 1-2 (probably WHM, possibly SGE or MAYBE but unlikely AST) alone for people who prefer the current playstyle. The only issue is that it means people who want a complex Job with the aesthetic of the one(s) left simple will be upset, but the people who want a simple Job with the aesthetic of the one(s) made more complex will also be upset, and if we care about that first group, we must ALSO care about the second, as it's the same argument. (2) is most likely to please the MOST people, however, and have a game where everyone is welcome to participate and both the people who liked SB Healer gameplay AND those who like ShB/EW gameplay have at least one Healer Job they can play and enjoy.

(3), (4), and (5) are just increasingly convoluted versions of (2) which prioritize the wishes of those who want more complex Jobs while ignoring those who do not, letting the former have their pick of aesthetic (and probably still being annoyed they aren't getting all 5) while sidelining those who enjoy the current gameplay. In the end, it still would probably work well enough, but it's clearly designed to favor one camp of people at the expense of another (just not as much as (7) does...)

(6) is the logical extension of (3) and (4): If we accept the argument that people who like an aesthetic deserve to have a Job with that aesthetic with the simple/complex gameplay type that they prefer, then logic would dictate we have to create duplicates of ALL FOUR Healer Jobs, not just one. If we're going to be logically consistent, anyway. There's no way that will ever happen, though.

(7) is pretty much off the table. It's not a bargaining position or "opening bid" since the Devs won't do it. People proposing change like to act like it's the default and they're compromising to have any deviations from it, but (1) is the default. Anything not (1) is a compromise towards the (7) position, not the other way around.

.

Given all this, (2) again makes the most logical sense, with (3) being the second best option. (4) is just a more convoluted version of (3), so acceptable, but weird.

Conjurer is called Druid in the German localization. In fact, remember the story I recounted about the level 89 CNJ in Praetorium? With a change like this, making CNJ a valid option, that player would be allowed to safely do their 'no-jobstone' character without being targetted by evil elitists like me with their horrid suggestions like 'hey if you get your job stone you get like 15+ more abilities'

I think I do remember a post from someone claiming to only use Conjurer and using a cry emote when a role quest said they were not a healer as a Conjurer. The post was overall ruled as a disagreement by the majority of us since there was no logical gain from doing it. It was all done just to make it harder on oneself so that it wasn't just Aero, Stone and Holy spam to victory. In a way, it was probably simulating the WoW Classic WotLK experience where we did have to actually spam heal the tank to keep them alive.

I think it will be an alright idea to discuss on adding another branching Druid Job or redesign Conjurer to preserve the current play style. Maybe there could be some form of resource or buff reward to make the next Aero or Stone hit harder when healing spells are used. Playing through all the classes and specializations from Warcraft and FF14, I am adaptable to any of the classes.

The interesting thing to me about this is, even with this being "a worse, more convoluted (2)", these guys are insisting on (5) instead of (4), even though (4) does the exact same thing. It just means there would be a JOB that they aren't going to get more complex.

Roe - I thought meant adding a new JOB. If you mean (5), then no, we don't agree.

If you mean (4), then sure, we agree. But I don't think you do. I think you're trying to use the language localization to say "Sure, you can have Druid...because CNJ is Druid! MWAHAHA! Pulled a fast one on ya!". If that's NOT what you mean, that's fine, but it's unclear at this point. Do you mean (5) with CNJ or (4) with Druid?

Like, what is this aversion to allowing a JOB STONE for people with the simple gameplay? The only reason I can think of is selfishness. Because (5) is CERTAINLY not easier for the Devs to do on the game's backend than (3) or (4) would be - despite Ty insisting it would be somehow.

I remember a post someone made way the hell back at the end of HW,

Yeah, but I think we all know that wouldn't happen. As you say, "in any universe".

.

EDIT:

Aside: Another modest suggestion:

Have the HW classes unlock at level 30 now. With HW being part of the base game, it just makes sense. AT THE VERY LEAST, AST. Most of the level 30-50 AST quests take place in the Black Shroud. They could have the level 30 quest start with E-Suni-Yan in the CNJ guild at level 30 (whether or not you've finished the CNJ quests/unlocked the WHM Job Stone quest), he sends you down to South Shroud to investigate "Whispers from the Elementals of travelers from afar" or some such. Then from level 30-50, the AST questgivers post up in the CNJ guild, moving to Ishgard once you complete the level 50 quest.

This would be a way more logical progression, have AST "effectively" come from CNJ anyway (though not locking out non-CNJs who want to just pick it up at level 30), and not make picking up AST feel like a step backwards. And given the quests are ALREADY in ARR zones, it makes sense, like how you can pick up the GNB quest in Gridania at level 60.