The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

[ForsakenRoe]

I remember a post someone made way the hell back at the end of HW, found here, that I found to be quite an interesting idea. Basically, by not only keeping, but expanding on the 'cross class' action system, their idea was that while jobs could be specialists, with kits designed around 'doing their job' (eg a Paladin would have defensives), a base class could keep up by using crossclass skills to shore up the gaps in it's kit, while also offering extra versatility by switching out one or two actions on a fight by fight basis.

It also went all-in on the SMN/SCH split and echoed it across every base class. A job that branches off of THM to be a tank? A BLU that isn't locked out of doing the story, in a story-driven MMO? A Healer version of DNC? It's got all that and more. It'd never have happened in any universe though, because it'd be a balancing nightmare. It'd essentially triple the number of 'jobs that can participate in endgame content'

[Renathras]

The arguing was starting to get senseless. Although there could be improvements for both sides. Whether people say they agree with it or not, admitting to not reading much of a post you are responding harshly to is not a very good look.

I don't want to hammer the point - but people liking Ty's post suggest it needs to be hammered: Responding to posts without reading them is generally a bad idea, especially if you're offering REBUTTALS to what you DID NOT READ.

Then using this as a defense, and almost a point of pride - using ignorance as pride? - is ridiculous.

Every post I reply to, I read all of, even if it's long. If I don't read the whole thing, I don't offer a rebuttal (but I do more or less always read entire posts before replying to them; it takes less than 5 minutes to read all but the most giga-novel posts). It's not something to take pride in, and isn't a valid defense.

.

As to the rest, you aren't wrong. It's why I often try to include summaries and do cut down a lot of what's in posts. In the case of the above, I was responding to Ty's own points, so my posts were as long as his number of points required.

As to the last bit: More or less. The alternatives/options here are:

1) Not changing Healers at all (this is the default/status quo situation if no compromises are reached).

2) Changing some of the Healers but leaving one alone - probably WHM because it's the most logical, though SGE is the second alternative* - which is also what I call the "Four Healers Model" (we have 4, they can all be different), and Misshapen Chair's suggestion.

3) Adding a new Job branching from CNJ that is what the "complex WHM" people want WHM to be, and otherwise doing (2) - let's call it Geomancer instead of Druid, to avoid any issues in German (lookin' at you, Roe). In this case, White Mage is the "simple" one and Geomancer will be made more complex, as will SCH, AST, and SGE per (2).

4) Adding a new Job branching from CNJ that is a direct copy of current WHM just to free up the "White Mage" Job to be changed. This is somewhat illogical as it's (3) with more work/more steps, but it's an option. In this case, GEO is the "simple" one and WHM will be made more complex, as will SCH, AST, and SGE per (2).

5) Rework the Class system - but only for CNJ - to make it where it's a simple version of WHM while still being a Class but can participate in all content like a Job, then change WHM (and the other 3 Healer Jobs) as per (4) (this will never happen; if we do this for CNJ, then every other Class will be demanding it for them - NINs who prefer Rogue, DRGs who prefer LNC, and so on; it not only requires more coding to do, but would open up a secondary can of worms, and the Devs aren't going to touch that with a 10 foot poll, so this isn't even an option - I'm only presenting it here since it's what Ty and seemingly Roe are proposing, and is utterly impossible in terms of actually being implemented).

6) Add a new Job for ALL FOUR Healers, with one being simple and the other complex so people who like ANY of the Job aesthetics can play them in the simple or complex version, whichever they like best (this will also never happen).

7) Changing all four of the Healers so that none remain with the simple playstyle of today (this is VERY unlikely to happen due to the Devs' direction for the game and how it would alienate current players - AGAIN).

*I say WHM because it's always been the easiest Healer, it starts at level 1 so would be new players' first experience - and as far as all the data and anecdote indicate, a lot of FFXIV players are single player folks' first or second time with an MMO and often their first time in a given role - and its difficulty now is roughly comparable to what it's always been in the game. SGE is the second best choice, if not WHM, because it's only ever existed in the current state (unlike SCH which once had more DoTs or AST which once had more interesting cards), so "staying as it is" isn't losing/persisting in losing something, because it never had anything taken away. It's only ever existed in this state. Also, unlocking near the level cap is, in this sense, a boon, since it means people picking up Healing for the first time as an alt role they want to try out and maybe main, have the least amount of leveling to do. It's not the FIRST/BEST choice, but it's the SECOND best choice.

.

I'd suggest (2) or (3), (4) is just an illogical version of (3) to appease people that want more complex Jobs but specifically want the WHM aesthetic, and (5) is an even more illogical, even more work, version of (4). After all, if we do that for WHM, we'd then need to do it for all four Healers, since we've made the point that AESTHETIC must ALSO be accessible to everyone. Which requires doing either (6) (which won't happen) or (1) (which is the most likely of ANY of these to happen).

(2) makes the most sense by far by most any logic. It requires no new systems be made, it allows for changing several Healer Jobs to appeal to those bored right now, it also leaves 1-2 (probably WHM, possibly SGE or MAYBE but unlikely AST) alone for people who prefer the current playstyle. The only issue is that it means people who want a complex Job with the aesthetic of the one(s) left simple will be upset, but the people who want a simple Job with the aesthetic of the one(s) made more complex will also be upset, and if we care about that first group, we must ALSO care about the second, as it's the same argument. (2) is most likely to please the MOST people, however, and have a game where everyone is welcome to participate and both the people who liked SB Healer gameplay AND those who like ShB/EW gameplay have at least one Healer Job they can play and enjoy.

(3), (4), and (5) are just increasingly convoluted versions of (2) which prioritize the wishes of those who want more complex Jobs while ignoring those who do not, letting the former have their pick of aesthetic (and probably still being annoyed they aren't getting all 5) while sidelining those who enjoy the current gameplay. In the end, it still would probably work well enough, but it's clearly designed to favor one camp of people at the expense of another (just not as much as (7) does...)

(6) is the logical extension of (3) and (4): If we accept the argument that people who like an aesthetic deserve to have a Job with that aesthetic with the simple/complex gameplay type that they prefer, then logic would dictate we have to create duplicates of ALL FOUR Healer Jobs, not just one. If we're going to be logically consistent, anyway. There's no way that will ever happen, though.

(7) is pretty much off the table. It's not a bargaining position or "opening bid" since the Devs won't do it. People proposing change like to act like it's the default and they're compromising to have any deviations from it, but (1) is the default. Anything not (1) is a compromise towards the (7) position, not the other way around.

.

Given all this, (2) again makes the most logical sense, with (3) being the second best option. (4) is just a more convoluted version of (3), so acceptable, but weird.

Conjurer is called Druid in the German localization. In fact, remember the story I recounted about the level 89 CNJ in Praetorium? With a change like this, making CNJ a valid option, that player would be allowed to safely do their 'no-jobstone' character without being targetted by evil elitists like me with their horrid suggestions like 'hey if you get your job stone you get like 15+ more abilities'

I think I do remember a post from someone claiming to only use Conjurer and using a cry emote when a role quest said they were not a healer as a Conjurer. The post was overall ruled as a disagreement by the majority of us since there was no logical gain from doing it. It was all done just to make it harder on oneself so that it wasn't just Aero, Stone and Holy spam to victory. In a way, it was probably simulating the WoW Classic WotLK experience where we did have to actually spam heal the tank to keep them alive.

I think it will be an alright idea to discuss on adding another branching Druid Job or redesign Conjurer to preserve the current play style. Maybe there could be some form of resource or buff reward to make the next Aero or Stone hit harder when healing spells are used. Playing through all the classes and specializations from Warcraft and FF14, I am adaptable to any of the classes.

The interesting thing to me about this is, even with this being "a worse, more convoluted (2)", these guys are insisting on (5) instead of (4), even though (4) does the exact same thing. It just means there would be a JOB that they aren't going to get more complex.

Roe - I thought meant adding a new JOB. If you mean (5), then no, we don't agree.

If you mean (4), then sure, we agree. But I don't think you do. I think you're trying to use the language localization to say "Sure, you can have Druid...because CNJ is Druid! MWAHAHA! Pulled a fast one on ya!". If that's NOT what you mean, that's fine, but it's unclear at this point. Do you mean (5) with CNJ or (4) with Druid?

Like, what is this aversion to allowing a JOB STONE for people with the simple gameplay? The only reason I can think of is selfishness. Because (5) is CERTAINLY not easier for the Devs to do on the game's backend than (3) or (4) would be - despite Ty insisting it would be somehow.

I remember a post someone made way the hell back at the end of HW,

Yeah, but I think we all know that wouldn't happen. As you say, "in any universe".

.

EDIT:

Aside: Another modest suggestion:

Have the HW classes unlock at level 30 now. With HW being part of the base game, it just makes sense. AT THE VERY LEAST, AST. Most of the level 30-50 AST quests take place in the Black Shroud. They could have the level 30 quest start with E-Suni-Yan in the CNJ guild at level 30 (whether or not you've finished the CNJ quests/unlocked the WHM Job Stone quest), he sends you down to South Shroud to investigate "Whispers from the Elementals of travelers from afar" or some such. Then from level 30-50, the AST questgivers post up in the CNJ guild, moving to Ishgard once you complete the level 50 quest.

This would be a way more logical progression, have AST "effectively" come from CNJ anyway (though not locking out non-CNJs who want to just pick it up at level 30), and not make picking up AST feel like a step backwards. And given the quests are ALREADY in ARR zones, it makes sense, like how you can pick up the GNB quest in Gridania at level 60.

[ForsakenRoe]

Nah I was just enjoying the irony that you and Ty were both arguing about this hypothetical Druid Job addition, vs 'no rework CNJ to be the solution to the problem', neither realizing the truth of the matter, that it's already in the game in some form.

There is definitely implementation issues with trying to make it so CNJ can be 'able to participate', and it would, agreed, be weird to have that be the only class that is able to do this 'competes with it's Job equivalents in it's role' thing. But every solution would require implementation issues. I guess the question is 'which has the right balance of 'few issues' and 'satisfies the playerbase'', and as much as it pains me, I get the feeling that SE's answer to the issue will be something along the lines of 1: do nothing.

You're right in that adding a new job would just repeat the issue, of 'I wanted to have X job, but with actual gameplay'. So I guess the solution I'd pose would be to have a new job that isn't tied to a 'fan following'. In essence, what they did for RPR, create an entirely separate, new aesthetic/job name, not tied to any previous named FF job, and make it accessible as soon as you can swap classes in game (same as how Rogue works), or if they can actually do the work required, put it as a 'starting class' (and put Rogue there too while they're at it). No need to complain about 'my favorite aesthetic got screwed by trash gameplay' when the aesthetic has no basis in FF history, right?

[Renathras]

No need to complain about 'my favorite aesthetic got screwed by trash gameplay' when the aesthetic has no basis in FF history, right?

ONCE MORE - This works both ways, though: Keep in mind that to players that don't like DPS rotations, the "trash gameplay" is what you're proposing Healers be changed to. So from their perspective, we need to make the "new Jobs" for the people that want the complex gameplay, not the other way around.

...granted, it's kind of a moot point. SCH is a RELATIVELY new Job; other than a completely different form of it in FF3, its only other major outing in the franchise's history was FFXI - as a complex Healer, so that makes sense for it to be one here, too. AST is an ENTIRELY new Job with no real predecessor to speak of in the franchise's history. The closest thing is probably that one NPC in FFTactics (the one who wrote the actual story that's being read to us by one of his descendants in the future at the game's opening and closing), and he was arguably a DPS Job, not a Healer Job. And SGE in this form is brand new to the series, and arguably not a "Sage" in the normal sense.

Indeed, despite you guys saying otherwise, WHM is the only Healer Job in FFXIV that has a long history in the franchise, and this incarnation of it is fairly similar to most of its representations across the series in at least some form.

Given that, I feel like any "new Job that isn't tied to a 'fan following'" would also repeat the process. Whether that be a niche Job given a new use (say, Chemist as a Healer, arguably what SCH was), a brand new Job never before seen (say "Heavenly Wanderer" or some such, like AST)), or a previously named Job given entirely distinct lore and gameplay such that it doesn't have any relation to its past incarnation (like SGE), I feel no matter how we did it, if there wasn't a complex copy, the complex people would be annoyed.

I don't think the answer is to try to cater to that, but to just say "Guys, you don't get everything you want. Look at the other side. They're almost not getting anything at all!"

.

I am...humbled, though. Even though you disagree with me, it's not often I see you accept the rationality of the points I make. I don't mean this as an insult, it's just...strange to the point I'm not quite sure how to deal with it. Pleasant, though! I wouldn't mind more of it.

[ty_taurus]

I don't want to hammer the point - but people liking Ty's post suggest it needs to be hammered: Responding to posts without reading them is generally a bad idea, especially if you're offering REBUTTALS to what you DID NOT READ.

Sure, it absolutely would've been better of me to thoroughly analyze every detail, especially knowing how you respond to someone even slightly misunderstanding something you say. But you did an equally terrible job of trying to correct the misunderstanding. Rather than very clearly and patiently writing something like "I think you're misunderstanding. When I say 'Druid' I just mean exactly what you're describing, but with a job stone attached.' vs writing an essay on how you've been verbally accosted and then speak to someone like they're a disobedient animal.

Yes, if someone wants to rebound off of your post, they should read everything clearly, but every post is also an entire TV season that by the time you reach the end, you've forgotten the first half. It would be a lot easier to actually know what you're trying to say if you improved your ability to keep a thought concise. I find it easy to get lost in the yelling so much that it's hard to see the actual point.

[Renathras]

...

You're...using ignorance as a defense again.

AND as an attack against someone else who WASN'T ignorant and didn't commit the same sin? o.O

Ty, I know you hate admitting you were wrong, but this isn't a hill you can fight on. You replied to something without reading it. Despite multiple replies from me to your rebuttals, you apparently CONTINUED to reply WITHOUT reading them. Then you say it was my job to set the misunderstanding straight when you never said or seemed to be misunderstanding it at all, you seemed like you were being obtuse. I can't read your mind. I don't know when you don't read my posts. All I saw was you giving rebuttals to my posts, which had me ASSUME THAT YOU READ THEM and that, instead of replying to them, you were being willfully obtuse about it - you have been before, so it's a good assumption.

It's not my job to fix your misunderstanding when you neither say you are misunderstanding me nor appear to be misunderstanding me, and when your replies make it appear that you DO understand but were just being antagonistic, something you have a history of doing.

If you say "I'm not sure I understand you, can you summarize that?" THEN I can clear up your misunderstanding. If you say "I disagree, and here's all how I disagree!", and your disagreement seems like you're on topic and are at least acknowledging the general topic being discussed, I can't know that you didn't read my posts OR didn't understand them.

THE ONUS IS ON YOU to say if you're misunderstanding (OR NOT READING) my positions, not on me to figure out you didn't read them and are OFFERING A REBUTTAL TO A THING YOU DID NOT READ.

The way you were constantly hammering on this CNJ Class-only solution, and saying things like "just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean we shouldn't do it now" (even when I was talking about the SMN/SCH split being precedent for a split Class/Job) gave me all indications you WERE reading AND understanding my posts, and just being diagreeable because you didn't want a solution that was a new Job stone that didn't have a complex DPS kit - a position YOU GENERALLY HOLD.

So I had ZERO reason to suspect you were misunderstanding anything. How can I clear up a misunderstanding I have zero reason to even know is happening? When you have a history of acting this way in other cases - and you've never told me before that you don't read my posts for me to even be able to GUESS that you were misunderstanding things?

/sigh

This is the kind of thing you do that's infuriating. And it stems from you not being able to admit when you're wrong, even when you're dead to rights wrong.

.

For my part, I often find it's easy to get lost in ranting your walls of text. Which is why I read them carefully before replying to them ANYWAY, just to make sure I've got all the details right. I don't even always succeed, but damnit if I don't put in the effort.

Rather than very clearly and patiently writing something like "I think you're misunderstanding. When I say 'Druid' I just mean exactly what you're describing, but with a job stone attached.'

You mean like:

BECAUSE ONLY ONE IS A JOB.

Your one example of how this is possible uses a Job stone.

(Note this was referring to SCH and SMN splitting from ACN, meaning you should be able to understand I meant DRU/GEO splitting from CNJ. Again, I have a baseline assumption that you aren't stupid, Ty. Should I reevaluate that?)

There's literally no reason NOT to do this with a Job stone (save one, which I'll get to...)

Which they'd get if it was Druid or Geomancer. OR if it was WHM and DRU/GEO was the one one that Yoshi P took your WHM rework idea and made THAT Job into it instead. What's the downside of the people with the simple kit having a JOB instead of a CLASS, exactly?

(Again, this is me assuming you aren't stupid and are following the conversation since you keep offering rebuttals as if you are reading my posts and understanding them.)

Your proposal, while you insist it's little work, is actually MORE work than adding a new Job. Because they'd have to (a) rework the Class system to have Traits that are not inherited by the Job that comes from it (something that doesn't exist currently; SCH, in the game code, is basically like AST, a stand alone Job without a Class, at this point), (b) they'd then have to copy ALL the current WHM abilities to this new "Class", (c) they'd have to alter the game's matchmaking system to allow Classes to que up in things that don't right now, but ONLY for CNJ, (d) then they'd have to rework the WHM Job entirely, basically creating a new Job out of it like SMN.

How is that less work than "Leave WHM alone and then do (d) as a branching Job"? That's FAR more economical.

(Emphasis added)

Like adding a new branching Job to an existing Class? That would be a new thing.

YOU get what YOU want and I get what you're barely even willing to give me, even though it would require far more work to do what you propose than just adding a new Job for your WHM idea and leaving WHM alone OR adding a new Job to CNJ, copying WHM's abilities to that, and then changing WHM. Either of those would still be less work than what you've proposed.

(Emphasis added)

Add DRU or GEO as branching off CNJ.

(Empahsis added)

Notice how I went from in general terms - thinking you were smart enough to follow the conversation and actually READING IT - to more simple and explicit ones.

That last quote is literally me putting it as simple as possible - "Add DRU or GEO as branching off CNJ" - showing I WAS doing EXACTLY what you're now saying I had a responsibility to do. Meaning I DID do what you're saying I shouldhave done. YOU JUST DIDN'T READ IT.

.

You're trying to claim ignorance (or laziness) as not only an excuse, but also using YOUR ignorance as an attack against me. So much so, you say "You should have done X" when I DID DO X, you just DIDN'T READ IT. So even your attempt to attack me - WITH YOUR OWN IGNORANCE AS A WEAPON - falls flat because I did the very thing you asked.

We also have a limited number of daily posts here. I can't just make another post all the time to suit your ignorance. If you aren't going to read someone's posts, DON'T OFFER REBUTTALS TO THEM. And if you do and get called out on it, own up to the mistake. Don't double down and claim your ignorance and laziness as simultaneously a sword as well as shield because you couldn't be arsed to read someone's idea before attacking them for having it.

.

Even now, ALL you really need to do is this:

"Sorry, Ren. I didn't read your post, but I replied anyway with a contra position against a position you weren't even holding. My mistake, I'll try not to do that again in the future. And if I am not going to read your posts or if I misunderstand them due to that, I'll apologize and ask if you're willing to provide a summary so we can have a productive conversation instead if your posts are too much for me to read."

Hell, even just a: "Sorry, Ren, I wasn't reading your posts, so I misunderstood what you were saying. I'll try and ask questions in the future and/or fully read them so it won't happen again."

But those would mean admitting you aren't perfect and were wrong, I suppose. Thing is, I'm a pretty forgiving guy. I believe in second chances and redemption stories. All you had to do is just NOT double down on it. Claiming first your ignorance as a shield and then trying to weaponize YOUR IGNORANCE against me as if it's my fault? No dice, man.

.

And note that I DID explicitly lay this out for you (after your post where you went off the rails), with your next two posts being "Woof! Bark!" and "Betrayal", after which point I laid it out AGAIN.

Instead of you saying "OOoooooh. I get it. Sorry, I misunderstood you.", you tried to double down, claim your ignorance with pride, and then weaponize your ignorance as an attack against me, insisting _I_ should be the one addressing your not apparent misunderstanding when I, in fact, DID do so, you just didn't read them.

1) Add the Job Stone for Druid/Geomancer.
2) Make it branch from CNJ at level 30 just like how SCH/SMN work.
3) Give it all the current WHM abilities.
4) Give WHM all the changes you want to make to it.

(Emphasis in original)

Indeed, after THAT post, there's no way you could have still been misunderstanding it, and that part was even bolded in the original, so even scrolling by you would have seen it.

And I KNOW you read that one, at least the start, because your "Woof! Bark!" reply. Meaning that was the time for you to set the record straight and say something like "Sorry, I haven't been reading your posts at all. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying." At this point, remember, I STILL didn't know you weren't reading my posts (you didn't say that until your 3rd reply later) and I didn't know you were misunderstanding my posts since you didn't even acknowledge there MIGHT be a misunderstanding when it should have become clear to you (again, I still thought you were READING them) that there was one.

And, again, you DID read at least the start of that one, so you couldn't have missed the part in bold.

You shouldn't have posted "Woof! Bark!", you should have posted "OOOooooh, that's what you mean. Yeah, I've been misunderstanding you. Probably because...I...haven't been reading your posts. Sorry about that."

You have literally no defense left here, Ty.

.

HELL, I wouldn't even ask for an apology. At this point, I'm only hammering you on this because you KEEP DEFENDING IT.

If you just STOP defending it, I won't say another word about it. Note that you SHOULD own up to it and apologize, but even just NOT DEFENDING it would be sufficient.

Also, it's hilarious to the point of ABSURD you're saying I should clear up your ignorant misunderstanding I don't even know you have, when you were the same person who said this when I pointed out you should do something:

I shouldn't do jack.

As Tigore said:

Whether people say they agree with it or not, admitting to not reading much of a post you are responding harshly to is not a very good look. There is a high chance that the statement claims will be false if no verification is done.
...
Now it is true Renathras sometimes makes really long posts. I can see he is also passionate with the topics on hand.

[AmiableApkallu]

Indeed, despite you guys saying otherwise, WHM is the only Healer Job in FFXIV that has a long history in the franchise, and this incarnation of it is fairly similar to most of its representations across the series in at least some form.

Being a job with a long, long history in the franchise, I wish that "people" would speak of FFXIV's White Mage with the same reverence that they do for FFXIV's Black Mage, a class/job/blue-robe-pointy-yellow-hat with a history that's just as long.

They don't.

Why? I don't know. But I dare say, part of the reason is that FFXIV's White Mage doesn't fit FFXIV combat/encounter model, no matter how similar it might be to other White Mages in the franchise.

And at some level, that shouldn't be surprising. A lot of the games in the franchise are single player games. As the single player, you control multiple characters. If one of the characters under your control has barely any skills for dealing damage and spends 100% of their time focussed on "healing", then it's still the case that far less than 100% of your player time is focused on "healing." Variety of gameplay comes from the fact that you have multiple characters under your control, and from the fact that you can sometimes even choose those characters.

FFXIV doesn't offer that variety. You control one character. For better or for worse, encounter design, whether "casual" or "hard-core" or in-between, now follows a recognizable formula. Moreover, I'd say that it takes an epically incompetent party before "100% focused on healing" is required. A job with an over-abundance of healing buttons and minimal DPS buttons simply doesn't fit in. Something needs to change.

I personally don't have super-strong opinions on which, encounter design or job design. I'd vote for "both changing to meeting in the middle", but if that's not an option, then I'd vote for "give FFXIV WHM (and the other healers to be honest), something more than the barest bones of DPS kits."

[ty_taurus]

[...]

Not reading the entire thing. I scroll past when YOU YELL IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE ALL CAPS MAKES THINGS MORE TRUE. But I said I should've read the entire thing if I really wanted to engage. I just also said your response was equally terrible. That's not using it as a defense.

[Renathras]

...

Then let me summarize it for you:

You're...using ignorance as a defense again.

You shouldn't have posted "Woof! Bark!", you should have posted "OOOooooh, that's what you mean. Yeah, I've been misunderstanding you. Probably because...I...haven't been reading your posts. Sorry about that."

You have literally no defense left here, Ty.

As Tigore said:

Whether people say they agree with it or not, admitting to not reading much of a post you are responding harshly to is not a very good look. There is a high chance that the statement claims will be false if no verification is done.

Even now, ALL you really need to do is this:

"Sorry, Ren. I didn't read your post, but I replied anyway with a contra position against a position you weren't even holding. My mistake, I'll try not to do that again in the future. And if I am not going to read your posts or if I misunderstand them due to that, I'll apologize and ask if you're willing to provide a summary so we can have a productive conversation instead if your posts are too much for me to read."

Defending yourself - which you're doing - and attacking the person who you wronged is not an apology.

EDIT:

I'm done with your childish games. You know what you did, you aren't ignorant, and I'm not going to toy with you over this any longer. It's obvious to all and sundry, and doubling and tripling down on it is your failing, not mine.

EDIT2:

Also, there's a BIT of an irony to me you posting I should have laid out what I was saying explicitly to fix your misunderstanding (because you didn't read my posts) that I wasn't even aware of, and me pointing out I did do that, with quotes, and that you just didn't read them...and you saying "Not reading" that.

Almost like that's been your whole problem this whole time or something...

[ty_taurus]

Then let me summarize it for you:



Defending yourself - which you're doing - and attacking the person who you wronged is not an apology.

EDIT:

I'm done with your childish games. You know what you did, you aren't ignorant, and I'm not going to toy with you over this any longer. It's obvious to all and sundry, and doubling and tripling down on it is your failing, not mine.

I don't owe you an apology though. I said it's not the way to approach a conversation. I'm not hiding that aspect.