The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

[ty_taurus]

It has 5 DPS abilities, not 1, though?

...

I'm...glad you're coming around to it, I guess? /shrug

I mean, we can make it 1 if you'd prefer. It wouldn't have any way to AoE, or have any DPS refund attached, but Water Cannon all the way if that's what you'd rather have. I just assumed you'd want an equivalent of Holy, Assize, and Afflatus Misery at the least equipped with it being triggerable by any healing GCD. Song of Torment is there because Dia, but we can axe that too if you'd rather.

The difference between what you suggest and what I suggest is your suggestion was previously about having 1 healer (WHM) remain as a bare-minimum DPS healer while the other 3 get the offensive expansion that many of the rest of us here are looking for, but that means anyone who likes the aesthetic of WHM is restricted to that style of gameplay, which I don't agree with. Both my suggestions for BLU and for CNJ are more like easy mode branches of jobs that someone can opt out of. CNJ and WHM would have all the same things except CNJ would just have Glare III, Holy III, and maybe Afflatus Misery (all with higher potencies to compensate) WHM would have weaker versions of those plus several more offensive spells to create that gameplay factor the rest of us have been asking for.

But if that's fine with you, then great. CNJ or healer BLU becomes the minimum DPS healer, and WHM, SCH, AST, and SGE move on from that point.

[Renathras]

Wait what?

No, that makes no sense.

I thought you were suggesting BLU for your complex Healer.

I also think you consistently don't understand something:

If a change that leaves WHM alone hurts a portion of the community who DO want a damage suit but like WHM's aesthetic, then changing any OR ALL of the healers to have a more complex overall damage suit hurts EVERYONE who doesn't want that. Saying "people don't have to engage with it" doesn't change it's still there, on their Jobs, and still affects their gameplay experience. You may say it doesn't, but it does. No amount of you (who want it) saying it won't bother the people who don't want it changes the fact that, to the people who don't want it, it does bother them.

So if that's a valid argument for insisting WHM change, too, then it's also a valid argument for insisting ALL Healers DO NOT change.

Since it's an argument that supports both sides simultaneously - and yes, it does - you can't use it to support your position since I could just as easily point out a lot of people like SGE because of its simplicity who would be upset at no longer having access to the SGE aesthetic with the simplistic damage suite. So you cannot use that as support for your position.

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So setting that side:

BLU as the minimum DPS Healer makes no sense from a logical perspective. WHM makes far far FAR more. I've discussed this with WHM vs SCH/AST/SGE before, but we can add BLU to the mix now.

We'll start with your unlock requirement, which was to get BLU to level 100 - which takes at least SOME effort. Sure, you CAN have a friend powerlevel you, but we're talking "the easy player" here, and they likely aren't going to know how to do that or engage with the content in that way, meaning they have to level it from level 1 to cap on their own without the benefit of instance ques. In other words, it's not friendly to "Timmy Casual".

After that, to get BLU to that level and unlock "Unlimited BLU" means they probably had to go collecting spells, which isn't HARD, but it's not trivial, and most people are going to have to consult guides and such out of game, which, again, "Timmy Casual" isn't prone to doing.

Finally, because players who WANT a complex rotation already LIKE BLU Healer as it is, and so would like a derivation of that in Unlimited form. BLU, even Heal spec BLU, has an expansive DPS suite but a slim healing one. (Seriously, some Tanks come close to having as many healing buttons as BLU Healer does now!) It's robbing Jonny Hardcore of a BLU Tank, BLU DPS, and BLU Healer that he would prefer having right now anyway. So it's not only antithetical because Timmy Casual isn't the one leveling and unlocking it, but BLU is also tailor made for the Jonny Hardcore as it is. Even in a more limited "Unlimited" form, Jonny Hardcore would salivate at the options of having a Tank that doesn't work like regular Tanks or a Healer with an expansive and thematic DPS and Support suite.

So from both sides, it makes no sense for BLU to be the simple DPS Healer on any level. It makes less sense for BLU to be that than...honestly any other Healer. The only one that, in lore and aesthetic, MIGHT make sense to be more complex in its damage kit would be...MAYbe SCH? SGE makes some sense in the lore, but the unlock is kind of hit or miss (some schools of thought might suggest it should be the easy one since it's easy to unlock for alts, but I kind of disagree with that, personally; SCH being easier makes sense if you pair it with SMN and say "these are for people that like uncomplicated Jobs").

But even that's iffy.

BLU's much more of a RDM-like "jack of all trades", just with even more off the wall and thematically unique abilities, and that would be the identity to shoot for with it if it was given an "Unlimited" version.

But contrasting each of these points: WHM starts at level 1 and can be leveled through the normal process, and can even be a person's Class/Job when first entering the game. It's easy and straightforward to level. It has a simple and straightforward damage (and healing) kit, matching its history through the Final Fantasy series. It doesn't have customization or branching paths for hardcore players to min-max, and it doesn't appeal to the playertype who is really into that like BLU does.

There's no world where it makes logical sense to have BLU as the simple Healer and WHM as the complex one. That doesn't even make sense to me, even if BLU was somehow "the non-complex one" for Healing, Damage, and Tanking as a one-stop-shop for people that like simplistic gameplay. It just doesn't make any sense thematically, via lore, via history (franchise history or metagame history) at all.

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CNJ is an interesting idea, though it would require changing how they do Jobs and Classes entirely, and likey making another Job stone for it. It's just the way the game systems work right now. If it had a Stone+ Trait, WHM would also get it, meaning WHM's Glarespam would be as strong as everyone else's damage rotation, and WHM doing its rotation correctly would be doing 25-50% more damage than all the other Healers, which probably isn't what you're going for. A WHM doing 15% of a bosses health might be a BIT too much, I think you'd agree. So it would have to have a Job stone, meaning it would have to be given a separate JOB.

We'd have to add a new Job, maybe Druid or Geomancer (as a Healer - the in-game GEO's use WHM Wands as it is). But then we'd have this same problem again - all of you complaining that you like the Druid/GEO aesthetic but it has a simple damage rotation and how that's unfun and unfair to you guys. All the people right now complaining WHM doesn't have the earth/wind/water elements would be pissed if Druid/GEO got them and we'd still have this exact same complaint. So while they COULD arguably lock Druid/GEO as a Level 50 CNJ with just boosted ability power to keep it competitive with WHM, not only would they probably never do that in a million years, even if they did it, the people demanding complex DPS of every Healer aesthetic would STILL complain about it.

Indeed, if you're "willing to give" CNJ and BLU, that seems rather...well, CNJ is you giving up nothing (since you get to keep WHM) and BLU is you giving up nothing (since it isn't available now), while people in the camp opposed to you have to give up SCH, AST, and SGE to you, and get nothing from you except WHM without Holy spells - the aesthetic they currently enjoy. So in no way is that a fair solution to, honestly, anyone. But it also doesn't...work.


[For the record, what this would look like is a Job that has Cure 1, 2, Medica 1, 2, Stone 2, Aero 2, Raise, and the Job actions of Esuna, Repose, Swiftcast, Surecast, Lucid Dreaming, and Rescue. While an interesting thought experiment, I doubt this would work in any realistic sense. They don't even have an AOE attack or any instant casts other than Aero 2. Needless to say, this wouldn't appeal to people who like WHM as it exists RIGHT NOW at all.]

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I've given you the reasons why WHM staying as it is makes the most sense. And while you've tried to come up with any number of ways to get around this, the one thing you've never truly done is acknowledge it.

IF WE WERE going to leave one alone, WHM is the logical choice.

CNJ would be if and only if we had another branching Job from it or they completely changed how the Class system worked (which they COULD, mind you, but then we'd also be talking about MRDs and ROGs and the like - something I would personally love, but we both know isn't happening). And BLU makes no sense at all.

And if we AREN'T, then you have to defend why harming people that like WHM, SCH, AST, and SGE aesthetic not being allowed to enjoy their Jobs anymore and having exactly zero ways to escape the change ("not engaging with, you're just bad now" doesn't cut it) is acceptable. Because it is not, in fact, acceptable to rob people of those Jobs they like the aesthetic of - your argument, not mine.

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EDIT:

Unless you want to be locked out of PFs by every Tom Dick and Harry for playing the job you like? Being forced to play a 'proper, not baby' job you're not as much a fan of the aesthetic of? Or would this not be an issue, because DF doesn't care what healer you are or what the playerbase thinks, and so you can clear the EX roulette just fine

Wouldn't be.

He didn't say "make WHM unviable". If you watch the whole video, he points out several times how things aren't optimal but are viable, and even fun - Noctural AST, for example - to the people who played and enjoyed them. WHM staying as it is now means it would keep the Potencies it has now relative to the other Healers. Meaning it wouldn't be locked out of content. Moreover, you'd have the "too hard to play well" issue with the other Healers, meaning it's far less likely WHM would be the one locked out, since PF groups would more often think that WHM is the reliable one. It's like how SMN, despite being the "braindead baby DPS" isn't locked out of PF groups because people know it can consistently do more DPS than RDM and sometimes BLM if in the hands of an average or below average player, so people aren't locking them out because they bring a certain guarantee of "At least we'll be getting X level of basic performance out of it, which is sufficient to clear content."

[ty_taurus]

ACN has actions unavailable to SCH, so CNJ can absolutely also have actions unavailable to WHM.

It’s a change that could literally be done in minutes. With the job stone, you are WHM, and you have an appropriate DPS rotation. With CNJ, the literal only thing that changes is anytime a DPS action is gained on WHM, CNJ instead has a trait that increases the damage potency of their Glare/Holy/Misery.

The only thing that would require investment is reworking WHM, but the following CNJ changes are seconds of effectively copying data over. That way you have your button mashing healer and an alternative for anyone that likes WHM but wants to engage with the combat model.

[AmiableApkallu]

WHM needs a rework for the simple reason that it's bland and flavorless.

AST has flavor: cards, stars, time. SCH has flavor: fairy, a tool for every occasion. WHM has... ye olde generic HP restoration in spades, which is less a flavor and more a minimal expectation of a "healer."

FFXIV WHM is what you get when you take FFIV's Rosa and remove her unique weaponskill, remove most every spell related to buffs/debuffs/status effects, remove the super-charged version of Raise, remove the ability to use healing spells to deal damage, and then give nothing in return. FFXIV WHM has less variety than the original white mage/wizard.

[ForsakenRoe]

Long

I also think you consistently don't understand something:

If a change that leaves WHM alone hurts a portion of the community who DO want a damage suit but like WHM's aesthetic, then changing any OR ALL of the healers to have a more complex overall damage suit hurts EVERYONE who doesn't want that. Saying "people don't have to engage with it" doesn't change it's still there, on their Jobs, and still affects their gameplay experience. You may say it doesn't, but it does. No amount of you (who want it) saying it won't bother the people who don't want it changes the fact that, to the people who don't want it, it does bother them.

Once again, back to World of Warcraft. Blessing of Seasons talent gives Holy Paladin a button that, every 45s, allows them to give an ally a buff, rotating in sequence through four effects. More damage, faster CDs, MP restore, Healing given and taken both increased. If they don't want that gameplay, they don't take that talent. They'll still clear most of the content in the game without it. It's only Mythic Raiding and megahigh M+ keys where metaslaving is important, and at those points, players are likely swapping their class entirely if necessary if it's advantageous for the group. Havoc DH can take Momentum, a talent that makes Vengeful Retreat (Yaten) grant Fury over time, and Fel Rush (more En Avant than Gyoten) to grant a short % damage buff. If people don't like getting launched all over the place, they don't have to use that talent. They can still clear most content. Same for other classes and their talent choices, you only run into 'damn I need to use this specific build' at super high content levels. Content beyond the skill level of you or I.

People want to keep Energy Drain even though it's now down to 100p. Clearly it doesn't matter how much of a difference an 'optimization tool' is in the grand scheme, what matters is that it exists. So if you do something like what I suggested, all those months ago, and balance the potencies in such a way, you can have 'spam Glare, refresh Dia when it falls off' at 98% of the effectiveness of 'actual full optimization'. And you can do the same with the other healers, give SCH 3 DOTs but have 'spam broil with no brain' give 90% of the efficiency of juggling those three DOTs. That way in most content, it doesn't matter if Timmy ignores the DOTs entirely, he still clears. It's only in content specifically designed to test the player's skill that they need to know how to actually play the game. And before you go 'ok well now the people who could clear cant anymore', you don't lose anything by clearing later. There's functionally no difference in reward between clearing on week 4 or week 14, beyond ego

We'll start with your unlock requirement, which was to get BLU to level 100 - which takes at least SOME effort. Sure, you CAN have a friend powerlevel you, but we're talking "the easy player" here, and they likely aren't going to know how to do that or engage with the content in that way, meaning they have to level it from level 1 to cap on their own without the benefit of instance ques. In other words, it's not friendly to "Timmy Casual".

Assuming you are using current, Limited form BLU to get to 100, yes, it would be friendly to Timmy. It still has the insane XP multiplier in the open world, it still has access to ridiculous abilities like Ultravibration, LVL Death, White Wind for selfsustain, they could rework 1000 Needles to 'Numerous Needles' so that it scales with your level if they really wanted. Actually, can that be the Holy equivalent Ty, thanks

After that, to get BLU to that level and unlock "Unlimited BLU" means they probably had to go collecting spells, which isn't HARD, but it's not trivial, and most people are going to have to consult guides and such out of game, which, again, "Timmy Casual" isn't prone to doing.

The game tells you where to find each of the spells. Not exact locations, but the zone they're in, or the dungeon they're in. No 'outside guide' is necessary, unless 'exact coordinates' is required for Timmy to find the mob. Spoonfeeding him the content is kinda par for the course though, and that's why people are asking for the changes they are

There's no world where it makes logical sense to have BLU as the simple Healer and WHM as the complex one. That doesn't even make sense to me, even if BLU was somehow "the non-complex one" for Healing, Damage, and Tanking as a one-stop-shop for people that like simplistic gameplay. It just doesn't make any sense thematically, via lore, via history (franchise history or metagame history) at all.

When I used BLU in older games like FFTA, for damage I used LVL death or Twister, and for healing I used White Wind. Most other stuff I ignored. Sounds pretty 'noncomplex' to me

CNJ is an interesting idea, though it would require changing how they do Jobs and Classes entirely, and likey making another Job stone for it. It's just the way the game systems work right now. If it had a Stone+ Trait, WHM would also get it, meaning WHM's Glarespam would be as strong as everyone else's damage rotation, and WHM doing its rotation correctly would be doing 25-50% more damage than all the other Healers, which probably isn't what you're going for. A WHM doing 15% of a bosses health might be a BIT too much, I think you'd agree. So it would have to have a Job stone, meaning it would have to be given a separate JOB.

Been a while since I programmed, but I assume there's a way to detect this stuff and conditionally activate it based on certain criteria. BLU skills have modifiers based on if the BLU is Tank/Heal/DPS Mimic'd. They have Basic Instinct which only works when they are A: in content that is usually tackled by a group, and B: the only living party member in the group. The CNJ only quest to get the Unicorn mount, which may have been fixed now but it used to ask specifically for CNJ. It could, for all we know, literally be as simple as having an if-else statement that says 'if player is WHM, disable trait'

Indeed, if you're "willing to give" CNJ and BLU, that seems rather...well, CNJ is you giving up nothing (since you get to keep WHM) and BLU is you giving up nothing (since it isn't available now), while people in the camp opposed to you have to give up SCH, AST, and SGE to you, and get nothing from you except WHM without Holy spells - the aesthetic they currently enjoy. So in no way is that a fair solution to, honestly, anyone. But it also doesn't...work.

Isn't this the ideal solution, though? CNJ being useable as 'another option to heal with' gives the 'I want simple DPS' crowd an option, gives the 'I want WHM to have a skillcap' crowd a skillcap to aim for, who loses out here? Unless you're shifting from 'I want a healer to keep simple gameplay' to 'I want the healer of my choice to keep simple gameplay due to me enjoying the aesthetics' which, as we're well aware, isn't really defensible because it wouldn't be up to any of us which healer it is that keeps that simple gameplay. For all we know, AST might be the only healer to keep 'one button one dot' gameplay, justified by SE as 'well its got cards to worry about', and the other three become PHD in engineering level complex.

Wouldn't be.

He didn't say "make WHM unviable". If you watch the whole video, he points out several times how things aren't optimal but are viable, and even fun - Noctural AST, for example - to the people who played and enjoyed them. WHM staying as it is now means it would keep the Potencies it has now relative to the other Healers. Meaning it wouldn't be locked out of content.

WHM was viable in SB. MCH was 'viable' in 6.2 (I know of someone who cleared the raid on it day 4). DRK was viable in SB, even getting BOTH ultimate worldfirsts. None of this matters because the average goon in PF doesn't care about the definition of 'viable'. What they think 'viable' means is 'what is part of the absolute best comp that I heard about from my favorite strummer'. Moreover, the class would gain a reputation for being the 'bad player magnet'. You played WOW, you know about the stigma Hunters STILL have. You know about 'lol DRG' memes despite Jump animation locks being fixed for several years now. You can't accurately predict 'no no they'll let WHM do the hard content too!' when we have evidence that word of mouth singlehandedly shapes metas and PF landscapes for months at a time. You can make the prediction, but what I am saying is backed up by precedent

Just, as a reminder, the thread title is 'Thread: The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.' And is about a player coming from another MMO, and finding the levelling process of the healers dull as dishwater. IDK where the idea that 'WHM is simple and fun' came from, but I'd say it's about half right, it's definitely got the Simple part nailed down. It's really designed to be 'baby's first MMO', but unlike the levelling process of the competitor MMOs on the market, it doesn't ever take the training wheels off

[Renathras]

ACN has actions unavailable to SCH, so CNJ can absolutely also have actions unavailable to WHM.

Hm, that's actually a good point. They did divorce SCH from it. But keep in mind that SCH is a separate JOB, not the base CLASS. What you're arguing for would be like if ACN had Actions and Traits that SUMMONER did not inherit.

So we've established it CAN'T be CNJ. It would need to be a Job. So, I guess this means we need a new Job stone. So let's say we add Druid or Geomancer to the game. We give the kit WHM has now, and it splits off from CNJ at level 30. The exact kit WHM has now. Then we give WHM Tornado/Quake/whatever and some random 13 sec duration DoT for the hell of it.

What happens next? Won't you guys all complain that YOU want to play Geomander/Druid and how upsetting it is that YOU can't play the Job with the aesthetic that YOU want? Won't we be in this exact same situation a second time?

And, at this point, why not leave WHM alone - since we're copying all of its abilities anyway - and make the NEW Job this thing you want WHM to be instead? Hell, GEO/Druid would make more sense as the Job with Quake/Tornado/Flood, anyway.

WHM needs a rework for the simple reason that it's bland and flavorless.

Not at all. WHM is the most fun of the Healers right now and has a ton of flavor. It has Holy element spells where the others have random non-elemental (SCH), random non-elemental (AST), and laser (SGE). It has powerful direct heals, and the rotation and healing efficiency revolves around the Lily system. And it has Holy, one of the most iconic Healer abilities in the game. It's neither bland nor is it flavorless.

FFXIV WHM is what you get when you take FF Tactics WHM and add a slate of attack spells, ability modifiers, barriers/mitigations, and extra efficient versions of its staple regular heals.

[ty_taurus]

So we've established it CAN'T be CNJ. It would need to be a Job. So, I guess this means we need a new Job stone. So let's say we add Druid or Geomancer to the game. We give the kit WHM has now, and it splits off from CNJ at level 30. The exact kit WHM has now. Then we give WHM Tornado/Quake/whatever and some random 13 sec duration DoT for the hell of it.

What happens next? Won't you guys all complain that YOU want to play Geomander/Druid and how upsetting it is that YOU can't play the Job with the aesthetic that YOU want? Won't we be in this exact same situation a second time?

"We" have not established anything in regards to CNJ. You have declared that stance as fact. I don't care if there isn't a branching job off CNJ. My point is, rather than investing the resources needed to create an entirely new healer which retains the problem I'm trying to resolve of enforcing a bare-minimum DPS filler on anyone who likes that new job's design or visual identity, we can instead use an already existing resource to create a proxy job for anyone who has an allergy to DPS.

The point of suggesting that we use CNJ as this bare-minimum DPS healer is that anyone who likes CNJ/WHM is given the option to have more in their gameplay. There is no difference between the two beyond if they have 1 filler, 1 AoE, and 1 refund button, or actually fleshed out DPS gameplay other than one would have a lower DPS maximum, but a higher DPS minimum and vice versa. It's also extremely economic since it requires a very minor amount of work to accomplish.

I don't care if it hasn't been done before. Sometimes you do new things to resolve a problem. If we must have a minimum DPS healer to appease a chunk of players who would otherwise be unwilling to tolerate additional DPS gameplay on the remaining healers, then that is a solution that could quite literally be done in minutes. You get what you want, everyone else gets what they want. Why complicate it with trying to introduce Druid or Geomancer instead?

[Elucesta]

Idk im happy with how sage is currently, it just needs a few tweaks and in the future more skills to further differentiate it from its counterpart.

[Renathras]

Idk im happy with how sage is currently, it just needs a few tweaks and in the future more skills to further differentiate it from its counterpart.

Agreed. I like WHM and SGE right now. I like SCH okay, too. I don't play AST much, but honestly I'm moderately okay with it other than it has too much busywork.

"We" have not established anything

Yes, "We", have.

Your one example of how this is possible uses a Job stone.

All modern additions to the game are with a Job stone.

There's literally no reason NOT to do this with a Job stone (save one, which I'll get to...)

I don't care if there isn't a branching job off CNJ.

YOU don't. _I_ do.

My point is, rather than investing the resources needed to create an entirely new healer...

I know what's going on here, but you won't accept it if I tell you. Here's the short version:

You're like a kid who hordes all his toys when playing with friends at his house, and is only willing to share the action figure he doesn't like anyway that has a broken off arm if the other kid cries enough and your mom makes you share. It's immature and it's selfish. It's why you won't let people have WHM as it is (despite always being the simple Healer AND being the logical choice for the easy one) and you won't let them have SGE, either (despite it only existing in this model and under this form) - because you want them both. You're only VAGUELY "willing" to "share" the WHM with the broken arm that you don't like anyway, CNJ.

So much so you oppose the creation of Druid or Geomancer - a new Job - having WHM's current kit because that would be A JOB which YOU don't own and are having to share, which you desperately don't want to do. How dare there be a Healing Job that doesn't comport to your system, you protest, while insisting giving the armless WHM is "good enough".

The point of suggesting that we use CNJ as this bare-minimum DPS healer is that anyone who likes CNJ/WHM is given the option to have more in their gameplay.

Which they'd get if it was Druid or Geomancer. OR if it was WHM and DRU/GEO was the one one that Yoshi P took your WHM rework idea and made THAT Job into it instead. What's the downside of the people with the simple kit having a JOB instead of a CLASS, exactly?

It's also extremely economic since it requires a very minor amount of work to accomplish.

You know what would be even more extremely economic?

Leaving WHM as it is right now and adding GEO/DRU as what you want WHM to be.

Your proposal, while you insist it's little work, is actually MORE work than adding a new Job. Because they'd have to (a) rework the Class system to have Traits that are not inherited by the Job that comes from it (something that doesn't exist currently; SCH, in the game code, is basically like AST, a stand alone Job without a Class, at this point), (b) they'd then have to copy ALL the current WHM abilities to this new "Class", (c) they'd have to alter the game's matchmaking system to allow Classes to que up in things that don't right now, but ONLY for CNJ, (d) then they'd have to rework the WHM Job entirely, basically creating a new Job out of it like SMN.

How is that less work than "Leave WHM alone and then do (d) as a branching Job"? That's FAR more economical.

Sometimes you do new things to resolve a problem.

Like adding a new branching Job to an existing Class? That would be a new thing.

then that is a solution that could quite literally be done in minutes.

Know what could be done in even less minutes?

Leaving WHM as it is right now and adding GEO/DRU as what you want WHM to be.

You get what you want, everyone else gets what they want.

NO!

I DON'T get what I want.

YOU get what YOU want and I get what you're barely even willing to give me, even though it would require far more work to do what you propose than just adding a new Job for your WHM idea and leaving WHM alone OR adding a new Job to CNJ, copying WHM's abilities to that, and then changing WHM. Either of those would still be less work than what you've proposed.

You clearly don't know what I want, and don't care, but no, your proposal isn't what I want. It's what YOU want.

Why complicate it with trying to introduce Druid or Geomancer instead?

Because that's not COMPLICATING it. That's the SIMPLER solution.

Your solution would require new coding. It would require the community to see a Class - but ONLY one Class - as equal to Jobs. It would require change to the game's backend to accomplish.

That's not the simpler solution.

What's happening here is this:

I was right.

You don't want to share. You want every Healing Job to be one that YOU want with YOUR style of play. The only case you're willing to "give up" is one that you feel you aren't sacrificing anything because (a) CNJ isn't a Healer Job right now and (b) you having WHM means you aren't giving anything up.

"To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. Equivalent Exchange." It's not just Alchemy's one and only truth from a cartoon in a fictional universe, it's also the art of compromise. You give up something and you get something in return.

Your "compromise" here is that you give up nothing and get everything you want.

And the idea of GEO or DRU going to the simple players OR you getting those but WHM going to the simple players would mean you giving up something.

But then we'd have this same problem again - all of you complaining that you like the Druid/GEO aesthetic but it has a simple damage rotation and how that's unfun and unfair to you guys. All the people right now complaining WHM doesn't have the earth/wind/water elements would be pissed if Druid/GEO got them and we'd still have this exact same complaint. So while they COULD arguably lock Druid/GEO as a Level 50 CNJ with just boosted ability power to keep it competitive with WHM, not only would they probably never do that in a million years, even if they did it, the people demanding complex DPS of every Healer aesthetic would STILL complain about it.

Let's be real: THIS is what's going on here.

Admit it, don't admit it, it's the only reason to go through your tortured proposal rather than just adding a new Job for your WHM rework and leaving WHM alone, or adding a branching Job to CNJ that is WHM now (though that's still stupid since that'd be more work than just adding the new Job and giving it your WHM ideas as its rotation.)

I'm not trying to be antagonistic on this, I'm really not, but given what you have said in the past about SGE and your statements here, it's clear this is what's going on: You don't want to share, and the only way you're willing to share is if mom forces you to, and then only if you're giving up the broken toy you don't even like anyway.

I think we both know this - you're smart enough to know it, if you'd be willing to admit it to yourself - though I doubt your ability to admit it to yourself. Either way, that's the answer:

Add DRU or GEO as branching off CNJ.

Either give DRU/GEO WHM's rotation and then change WHM, or leave WHM alone and give DRU/GEO the rotation you want to change WHM's to.

Done.

Easiest fix possible. (Well, short of just leaving everything alone, anyway...)

[ty_taurus]

Yes, "We", have.

Your one example of how this is possible uses a Job stone.

All modern additions to the game are with a Job stone.

So change that. It's not written on the rosetta stone that a class can function horizontally to the jobs. That's just how it's been handled. Impossible is adding in a real-time first person shooter segment to a fight.

You don't want to share, and the only way you're willing to share is if mom forces you to, and then only if you're giving up the broken toy you don't even like anyway.

You are the one that doesn't want to share WHM. You are the one arguing that it's your way or the highway. The CNJ suggestion is literally about making it specifically so that everyone has it their way.

Can you explain to me how 'Two versions of the same job, one with additional DPS buttons and one without, where all other abilities are the same across both' is being selfish, and how 'Leave my job alone. This is the way that I want it, and no one else is allowed to speak against that' is being selfless?