Healer Survey:

[Aravell]

Well, it's like saying should Verholy and Verflare count as separate buttons from each other (you only use one or the other) or should Storm's Path and Storm's Eye count as different buttons (again, you only use one or the other).

Would you say that Verholy and Verflare count as 2 or as 1?

I don't think that's a proper comparison because Verflare and Verholy both affect your resources differently and both have a place in your single target DPS rotation. Same thing with Storm's Path and Storm's Eye. Meanwhile, Afflatus Solace and Rapture do the same thing in regards to your DPS rotation, they both give 1 petal to the blood lily, which makes them interchangeable.

If you're serious about only counting one or the other, then you can only either count Glare or an Afflatus spell, because you use either one or the other. See how dumb that kind of argument is?

[Renathras]

I don't think that's a proper comparison because Verflare and Verholy both affect your resources differently and both have a place in your single target DPS rotation. Same thing with Storm's Path and Storm's Eye. Meanwhile, Afflatus Solace and Rapture do the same thing in regards to your DPS rotation, they both give 1 petal to the blood lily, which makes them interchangeable.

If you're serious about only counting one or the other, then you can only either count Glare or an Afflatus spell, because you use either one or the other. See how dumb that kind of argument is?

To an outsider, you look like you...

Well, never mind.

Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Rapture have different use cases, and they're distinct actions. That's why I counted them differently. If I count them as one ability, then I'd have to count Verholy/Verflare as one ability. There are, in theory, cases where you'd use Solace or cases where you'd use Rapture because of their secondary effect, just as there are cases where you'd use Engagement vs Displacement. They have different non-damage effects even though their damage is the same and they're used at the same point in a rotation, with the choice between them being situational based on the fight situation at the time. There's a similar case with Forked and Fleeting Raiju as well (which ARE GCDs)

Forked and Fleeting do the same damage, but aren't the same ability, and would PROBABLY be counted by people as two distinct ones. If that's the case, Solace and Rapture have the same thing going.

And your example was dumb...because it doesn't make any sense. If you use a Glare instead of Solace/Rapture, you don't generate a Lily. So Glare isn't interchangeable with them, but they're interchangeable with each other. That's like comparing Forked/Fleeting Raiju to Spinning Edge to make an argument that Forked and Fleeting Raiju can't count as separate buttons since you can choose to use Spinning Edge in that GCD instead... Or using another Raiton and saying Raiton must be the same ability. That might be a dumb kind of argument.

EDIT:

In any case, no, there was no disingenuous intent. If they were the same ability or if one was a straight upgrade of the other (for example, if Rapture was 800 potency so that you'd NEVER use Solace), then they wouldn't count as distinct, I suppose. But that's not the case.

Likewise, that one is rarely used doesn't change things; a RDM can arrange their general rotation and Acceleration uses to where they're always using the same one of Veryholy/flare if they wanted to. There'd be no benefit from doing so, mind you, but you could absolutely do it unless your procs were just stupidly one-sided to the "wrong" element. A NIN can never use Fleeting Raiju and toss the button from their bars (I'm sure some people do). But, there's really no standard on "what counts", and I tend to keep all abilities on my bars, so...that's the way I was counting them. /shrug

[Aravell]

To an outsider, you look like you...

Well, never mind.

Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Rapture have different use cases, and they're distinct actions. That's why I counted them differently. If I count them as one ability, then I'd have to count Verholy/Verflare as one ability. There are, in theory, cases where you'd use Solace or cases where you'd use Rapture because of their secondary effect, just as there are cases where you'd use Engagement vs Displacement. They have different non-damage effects even though their damage is the same and they're used at the same point in a rotation, with the choice between them being situational based on the fight situation at the time. There's a similar case with Forked and Fleeting Raiju as well (which ARE GCDs)

Forked and Fleeting do the same damage, but aren't the same ability, and would PROBABLY be counted by people as two distinct ones. If that's the case, Solace and Rapture have the same thing going.

And your example was dumb...because it doesn't make any sense. If you use a Glare instead of Solace/Rapture, you don't generate a Lily. So Glare isn't interchangeable with them, but they're interchangeable with each other. That's like comparing Forked/Fleeting Raiju to Spinning Edge to make an argument that Forked and Fleeting Raiju can't count as separate buttons since you can choose to use Spinning Edge in that GCD instead... Or using another Raiton and saying Raiton must be the same ability. That might be a dumb kind of argument.

I look like I....what? If you wish to throw an insult, simply do so.

The point is that there's no talk of use cases here, the point of your post seems to be listing the actions which contribute to DPS, thus putting both Rapture and Solace there is redundant as they both contribute the same to WHM's DPS kit (1 petal to the lily). Like you said, you can do pointless things to make it so you only ever have to use Verflare or Verholy, but that would be dumb and result in damage loss. You could also just spam Mythril Tempest combo on WAR instead of ever using Storm's Eye, but we can both acknowledge that would be stupid to even entertain. I'll agree with you on the Raiju one though.

As for my example, it's correct under your terms. 4 Glares and a Misery is the same potency, so you can go through the entire fight and never use a single Misery as long as you use 4 Glares where all the Afflatus skills are used, thus, Glare and Afflatus spells have the same value. You can also only use one or the other since they're both GCDs.

[ForsakenRoe]

I look like I....what? If you wish to throw an insult, simply do so.

Save yourself the headache, he's more than willing to throw insults, but the second you raise heckles even slightly, he'll go 'oh woe is me, everyone here is so mean and always attacking me'

Anyway, the unfortunate truth is that yes, you do have to use Misery's even if there's no healing needed. Since Misery is equal to 4 Glares, by sacrificing three Glares outside of raidbuffs, you can move them 'inside' the raidbuffs in the form of Misery, moving you from having what should be, say, eight Glares inside the raidbuffs, to a pseudo-11 Glares (7 real, 4 via Misery). Annoying, but it is what it is. Personally, I hate it. I don't like throwing out healing when it's not needed, I'd rather hold the Lilies in case I need em for something. Sure my parse takes a hit because of it but I'd rather that than getting caught with my metaphorical pants down by Reaper Ronald standing in the dumb and being unable to heal them before their untimely demise because Tetra and Bene are just not enough OGCD tools compared to the other healers SE I am asking once again for a second Tetra charge thank you

As for Rapture and Solace, I'd only ever count one of them. And I'd only ever count one of Engagement or Displacement, or Fleeting/Forked. If someone else wants to count both halves of a pair then more power to em, but I'd call it disingenuous to do so. I would count Verholy and Verflare as separate 'skills' due to their effect on the Mana gauges, and their 'if that mana is lower, you guarantee the proc' effect, but I wouldn't consider it another hotbar slot because Aero/Thunder turn into them. Same with Jolt/Scorch/Reso, separate skills, not separate hotbar spaces. And when people criticize the idea of healers having more damage options, I assume it's more a worry about 'where do we put all this new crap on the bars', not 'I have 5 new damage skills (they all intuitively take the same space as current actions, eg a new AOE damage skill for Sage that is 'Eukrasian Dyskrasia' (yes I know it's contradictory))'

[ty_taurus]

Technically, you only need 3 afflatus heals for every 2 minutes, not every single minute, since we don’t have 1 minute raid buffs anymore. And theres no MP gain on using lilies unlike with Addersgall. Perhaps theres something to be said about rolling for a crit misery since that will likely be a gain over 4 glares which are unlikely to all crit, but that’s more of a gamble than a true DPS gain. Outside of solo content, 3 heals per 2 minutes is usually necessary enough for WHM.

The thing that may throw a wrench into that is if you use misery before the raid buff window, since you may need to burn lilies to have it up again in time.

If nothing else changes, having a blood lily anatman would be a great for out of combat or between phases way of discouraging wasting heals. A new afflatus spell that is not strictly a heal could also help with that mid combat. Perhaps we add something that grants a buff that causes your next healing spell to restore critical HP. Gives you a way to burn a lily while setting up your next heal to be stronger.

[AnotherPerson]

Technically, you only need 3 afflatus heals for every 2 minutes, not every single minute, since we don’t have 1 minute raid buffs anymore. And theres no MP gain on using lilies unlike with Addersgall. Perhaps theres something to be said about rolling for a crit misery since that will likely be a gain over 4 glares which are unlikely to all crit, but that’s more of a gamble than a true DPS gain.

There is MP gain, if you keep your GCD rolling and the afflatus heals are just unneeded, you can alternatively use them over spending another 400 MP on Glare. It's not a skill that gives MP, but it's an MP-positive skill compared to using 4 Glares in terms of damage potency per GCD. You basically save up 1200 MP over the course of a minute as a result in this roundabout way by simply using it.

[Aravell]

Save yourself the headache, he's more than willing to throw insults, but the second you raise heckles even slightly, he'll go 'oh woe is me, everyone here is so mean and always attacking me'

If that's the case, then I'll take your advice and dip out of the conversation. I've already said my piece.

[Renathras]

If that's the case, then I'll take your advice and dip out of the conversation. I've already said my piece.

Nah, ForsakenRoe REALLY doesn't like me because we have a difference of opinion on WHM changes and she takes it personally. She tends to harass and badmouth me in threads all over the forum. I can't post anything in here without her doing so, and she also does so in other threads she sees me post in like in the DPS forum. It's like having my own personal stalker.

If you're throwing in with her, you...well, poor life decisions, but do you.

As for insults, I try to avoid them. I will ever now and then break if someone's just been harassing me and pushes and pushes and pushes or does something pretty egregious like outright lying about me when they actually know better from prior (or even that very same) exchange, but I try to stick to facts and arguments/points of discussion. I dislike threads devolving into derailed personal insult/ad hominem fallacy chains. But certain people have decided that the best way to "win" arguments here is to just harass, derail, and smear the people that disagree with them at every turn, preventing any actual discussion and they seem to feel this means they will "win" by default.

It's obnoxious, but I try to avoid it. At this point I'm just not replying to the personal insults much anymore because there's no way to reason or get these people to stop doing it. I've tried.

I stopped because I DON'T want to get into an insult fight with you, despite you suggesting one first completely out of the blue and uncalled for.

I won't keep fighting over the buttons, I'm just saying they are separate buttons, with separate uses, that contribute to DPS (Misery is a DPS gain if used in buff windows) and to MP management (see just below here)

There is MP gain, if you keep your GCD rolling and the afflatus heals are just unneeded, you can alternatively use them over spending another 400 MP on Glare. It's not a skill that gives MP, but it's an MP-positive skill compared to using 4 Glares in terms of damage potency per GCD. You basically save up 1200 MP over the course of a minute as a result in this roundabout way by simply using it.

This.

It's why Misery not being DPS neutral hurt WHM's MP economy in 6.0. Making Misery damage neutral, even if we made it not benefit from buffs at all, is like giving WHM's 1600 MP per minute, which is 4/5ths of an Aetherflow (1600 vs 2000), and close to that of Addersgall (2100 per minute average). It'd also be equivalent to getting 4x Thin Air uses per minute (on Glare). It's a pretty significant MP management boost.

They also serve as a movement tool, since WHM's other option is burning Swiftcast on a Glare or chain casting Dia if they have to move a long way. 2-3x Dia casts is definitely an DPS and MP loss over using Lilies there instead. And that's when Lilies do NO useful healing; when they do, they have even greater benefit.

Whew, an overwhelming 90% of SCHs, that's kind of wild. You know what you must do, Yoshida...

I fully expect that would be the majority position of SCHs across the board. It's a position even my anti-DPS-self shares, so you know it's going to be nearly universa

*whistles*

It appears it's almost unanimous from the healer community that we want to oGCD heal less.

Also this.

Seeing a lot of this in the long-form survey as well (though people are saying it in lots of different ways).

[Aravell]

Nah, ForsakenRoe REALLY doesn't like me because we have a difference of opinion on WHM changes and she takes it personally. She tends to harass and badmouth me in threads all over the forum. I can't post anything in here without her doing so, and she also does so in other threads she sees me post in like in the DPS forum. It's like having my own personal stalker.

If you're throwing in with her, you...well, poor life decisions, but do you.

As for insults, I try to avoid them. I will ever now and then break if someone's just been harassing me and pushes and pushes and pushes or does something pretty egregious like outright lying about me when they actually know better from prior (or even that very same) exchange, but I try to stick to facts and arguments/points of discussion. I dislike threads devolving into derailed personal insult/ad hominem fallacy chains. But certain people have decided that the best way to "win" arguments here is to just harass, derail, and smear the people that disagree with them at every turn, preventing any actual discussion and they seem to feel this means they will "win" by default.

It's obnoxious, but I try to avoid it. At this point I'm just not replying to the personal insults much anymore because there's no way to reason or get these people to stop doing it. I've tried.

I stopped because I DON'T want to get into an insult fight with you, despite you suggesting one first completely out of the blue and uncalled for.

Excuse me, I never once insulted you. I called your post maybe disingenuous and I called your argument dumb. But I never once attacked you, the person behind the screen. You, on the other hand, went straight to attack me directly on your 2nd reply to me.

If taking someone's advice is akin to "throwing my lot in with them", then sure. I already said I don't know you well, if someone else that knows you better gives me advice, why would I refuse it?

Anyway, you've shown yourself to be very assuming of me and very difficult to discuss anything with, I'll be taking my leave, continue thinking of me as a meanie that insulted you if that makes you feel better. I'm out.