Healer Survey:

[Renathras]

...

Depends on how you look at it. SMN technically has 12 damage related buttons (15 if you count the AOE variants as separate, even though they map 1:1 to the single target and most of its abilities are AOE), and that's counting Searing Light, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Fester, Bahamut, and Enkindle Bahamut, but is almost always called a "2 button rotation"/"same 2 buttons over and over". You can technically point out that several of these buttons pull double duty, with Ruin 3 taking on a different ability under DWT and FBT, and with Gemshine and Astral Flow having 3 different forms each for a total of 6 different abilities. But don't say that in the DPS forum... needless to say, most people aren't counting those as "rotation". The "rotation" is generally going to be considered as only having 3 buttons, Ruin 3, Gemshine, and Astral Flow. No other button on their bars is hit more than twice in a 60 second time period (Fester is hit ONLY twice), and Ruin 3 itself isn't hit more than once (unless you died), it's the hot-swap with Astral Impulse/Fountain of Fire. SMN's rotation is weird since the buttons change how you use them, but people constantly insist it's only a 2 button rotation.

MCH has 7 GCD buttons that are vaguely part of its rotation. Heated Split, Slug, and Clean Shot, Drill, Chainsaw, Air Anchor, and Heat Blast. Its AOE drops the 1-2-3 for Scattershot, Drill for Bio Blaster, Chainsaw for itself, Auto-Crossbow for Heat Blast, and Air Anchor is dependent on how many enemies (enough enemies and it's a DPS loss vs Scattergun). Flamethrower is an oGCD technically. Even if we count the oGCDs, we're at 14 for single target, with only 4 more for AOE which merely replace the 1-2- combo, Drill, Heated Shot, and Flamethrower is kind of its own thing. MCH's single target rotation is 3 buttons in a combo, 1 button based on a gauge, and 3 buttons based on their own CDs.

RDM has 8 single target, 4 AOE GCD hotkeys. If we add in Holy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution (the latter two being pressing the same button twice, akin to PLD's Requiescat combo), that brings us up to only 12 for single target and 8 for AOE. But these are more situational/proc buttons (change based on context, not wholly distinct). It's sort of like asking if Repost and Enchanted Repost are the same ability or not. Still, the core casting rotation is 5 GCDs. There are 6 oGCDs if you include Swiftcast (RDM can since it doesn't have to save it for Raise) with Contre Sixte, Fleche, Manafication, Embolden, and Acceleration. Technically you have Reprise as well, I guess. Oh, and I suppose you could count the movement oGCDs, though two of them share a CD. RDM's rotation is weird since there are a total of 7 buttons you only use once per full rotation cycle (the melee combo and following magic combo, of which you only use one of Holy/Flare per combo), but three of those share a hotbar and elemental distribution. The thing is, unlike SMN (to the people that dislike it), these feel distinct somehow and their specific rotational order somehow makes people think of something more than with SMN. That is, they are never counted as "just 1-2" like SMN's rotation is.

DNC could probably be fit in here as well, considering how people talk about it, but I don't use it to know that one. I'll have to level it and look through what GCDs it has and how its rotation works someday.

WHM, strictly speaking, already has 5 GCDs in its damage rotation; Glare, Dia, Afflatus Solace, Rapture, and Misery, with two damage related oGCDs, Presence of Mind and Assize. Debateably Swiftcast and Thin Air. An optimal WHM should be keeping Thin Air charges rolling by using up the second charge at any given time on a Glare/Dia...no one does this, but optimal play technically would be doing this since under optimal play conditions, you aren't using Raise, and definitely not hardcasting Raise.

Some Jobs are fantastic at compressing lots of abilities into a few buttons, with SMN and RDM being big examples of it, but so does PLD (while still having button bloat somehow...) and GNB with Continuation and Gnashing Fang both. Are those separate abilities as far as rotation? Technically yes, but...whether people classify them as such is kind of hit and miss. While way too many people call all of Gemshine and Astral Flow the same two buttons, almost no one does that of Verholy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution. But on the other hand, people kind of ignore the non-Enchanted 1-2-3 melee combo exists as the only time it's EVER logical to use it is if you're Verraising to the point of having no MP at which point it becomes technically more DPS than standing there doing nothing while waiting for a MP tick or two for another Jolt.

So really it more comes down to how you say it, and there's no good way. "Tank rotation" - is that the 1-2-3 -4, or is that the oGCDs as well? Does Gnashing Fang/Continuation count, or is that a side thing? Does Requiescat count as 4 buttons or 1? Which Tank are we talking about? If we count all the abilities (e.g. all Gnashing Fang and Continuation), GNB probably has more than some DPS Jobs. 1-2-3, Gnashing 1-2-3, Continuation 1-2-3, Burst Strike + its continuation, Double Down, Sonic thingy, with oGCDs Burst Strike, Circle of Scorn (it's totally Circle of Scorn...), Bloodfest, and Fight or Flight (okay, fine, No Mercy). Oh, and Lightning Shot. Then we also have to remember the AOE 1-2 and spender. That's a total of 18 abilities, 14 if we don't count oGCDs, which is higher than SMN even WITH counting its oGCDs.

It's more to say "If you'd like more damage buttons, do you want something like a full on DPS rotation, or do you want something less?" But again, I was adapting the questions you gave me.

.

Make sure to post a link to FFXIVDiscussion as well.

PLD and SMN are going to be interesting since they're both likely to be VERY bimodal. Some people loving them and others hating them and wanting their old versions back. I'd say SMN more since the changes were more drastic, but PLD's changes are also more recent...

[ForsakenRoe]

So really it more comes down to how you say it, and there's no good way. "Tank rotation" - is that the 1-2-3 -4, or is that the oGCDs as well? Does Gnashing Fang/Continuation count, or is that a side thing? Does Requiescat count as 4 buttons or 1?

Tank rotation as in '123 as a single button', Burst Strike, Gnashing Combo (1 button), Sonic Break, Double Down, Continuation, Blasting Zone, Bow Shock, No Mercy, Bloodfest. 10 buttons.

And stop counting Solace and Rapture as two separate buttons for the WHM please, I don't remember the last time I pressed Solace. And counting Thin Air as 'a damage button' when the best place to use it is on high MP cost skills like Raise or, god forbid, Medica2, is disingenous too. And Swiftcast??? Come on man

[Aravell]

WHM, strictly speaking, already has 5 GCDs in its damage rotation; Glare, Dia, Afflatus Solace, Rapture, and Misery, with two damage related oGCDs, Presence of Mind and Assize. Debateably Swiftcast and Thin Air. An optimal WHM should be keeping Thin Air charges rolling by using up the second charge at any given time on a Glare/Dia...no one does this, but optimal play technically would be doing this since under optimal play conditions, you aren't using Raise, and definitely not hardcasting Raise.

Isn't it a tiny bit disingenuous to bloat WHM's DPS kit by adding both Afflatus Solace and Rapture in there? If you want to add one of them because they replace a Glare and build Misery, that's fair, but adding both really seems like you're trying to make WHM's kit look better. You also mentioned in your SMN paragraph that people don't count things you hit 2 times or less every minute but you added Swiftcast and Presence of Mind here?

Now, I don't know you well, so I won't presume your intentions, I'm just pointing out how it looks to an outside observer.

[ForsakenRoe]

Isn't it a tiny bit disingenuous to bloat WHM's DPS kit by adding both Afflatus Solace and Rapture in there? If you want to add one of them because they replace a Glare and build Misery, that's fair, but adding both really seems like you're trying to make WHM's kit look better. You also mentioned in your SMN paragraph that people don't count things you hit 2 times or less every minute but you added Swiftcast and Presence of Mind here?

Now, I don't know you well, so I won't presume your intentions, I'm just pointing out how it looks to an outside observer.

Now to their credit, you do hit a Lily heal THREE times a minute edit: wait hang on you only hit Misery itself once a minute so I guess you can count the Lily spender but not the Misery then right

And by that logic, tanks don't have anything beyond their 123 because everything else is 'dump it in 2min buffs'. Shadowbringer, LS, Delirium, Carve, Blood Weapon, Salted, all don't exist. Pack it up DRKs

[Renathras]

Tank rotation as in '123 as a single button', Burst Strike, Gnashing Combo (1 button), Sonic Break, Double Down, Continuation, Blasting Zone, Bow Shock, No Mercy, Bloodfest. 10 buttons.

And stop counting Solace and Rapture as two separate buttons for the WHM please, I don't remember the last time I pressed Solace. And counting Thin Air as 'a damage button' when the best place to use it is on high MP cost skills like Raise or, god forbid, Medica2, is disingenous too. And Swiftcast??? Come on man

Ah, I see, the "Don't count things that make my argument weaker" argument.

No.

Isn't it a tiny bit disingenuous to bloat WHM's DPS kit by adding both Afflatus Solace and Rapture in there? If you want to add one of them because they replace a Glare and build Misery, that's fair, but adding both really seems like you're trying to make WHM's kit look better. You also mentioned in your SMN paragraph that people don't count things you hit 2 times or less every minute but you added Swiftcast and Presence of Mind here?

Now, I don't know you well, so I won't presume your intentions, I'm just pointing out how it looks to an outside observer.

Well, it's like saying should Verholy and Verflare count as separate buttons from each other (you only use one or the other) or should Storm's Path and Storm's Eye count as different buttons (again, you only use one or the other).

Would you say that Verholy and Verflare count as 2 or as 1?

EDIT:

As for SMN: I more mean how people that (strongly) dislike SMN are overly hyperbolic in trying to say how simple it is. I don't think people actually sit down and count out how many buttons they press, they just think of buttons that are pressed "frequently" in the course of a given time period. Like RDM's Melee and Cast combo is 7 total buttons, 6 actions used in a row (Holy/Flare are an either-or, but do different things, technically), but you don't press it all the time. Still considered part of the rotation. Likewise Double Down. So I personally think of SMN's rotation as more buttons, but I doubt most people do.

[Aravell]

Well, it's like saying should Verholy and Verflare count as separate buttons from each other (you only use one or the other) or should Storm's Path and Storm's Eye count as different buttons (again, you only use one or the other).

Would you say that Verholy and Verflare count as 2 or as 1?

I don't think that's a proper comparison because Verflare and Verholy both affect your resources differently and both have a place in your single target DPS rotation. Same thing with Storm's Path and Storm's Eye. Meanwhile, Afflatus Solace and Rapture do the same thing in regards to your DPS rotation, they both give 1 petal to the blood lily, which makes them interchangeable.

If you're serious about only counting one or the other, then you can only either count Glare or an Afflatus spell, because you use either one or the other. See how dumb that kind of argument is?

[Renathras]

I don't think that's a proper comparison because Verflare and Verholy both affect your resources differently and both have a place in your single target DPS rotation. Same thing with Storm's Path and Storm's Eye. Meanwhile, Afflatus Solace and Rapture do the same thing in regards to your DPS rotation, they both give 1 petal to the blood lily, which makes them interchangeable.

If you're serious about only counting one or the other, then you can only either count Glare or an Afflatus spell, because you use either one or the other. See how dumb that kind of argument is?

To an outsider, you look like you...

Well, never mind.

Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Rapture have different use cases, and they're distinct actions. That's why I counted them differently. If I count them as one ability, then I'd have to count Verholy/Verflare as one ability. There are, in theory, cases where you'd use Solace or cases where you'd use Rapture because of their secondary effect, just as there are cases where you'd use Engagement vs Displacement. They have different non-damage effects even though their damage is the same and they're used at the same point in a rotation, with the choice between them being situational based on the fight situation at the time. There's a similar case with Forked and Fleeting Raiju as well (which ARE GCDs)

Forked and Fleeting do the same damage, but aren't the same ability, and would PROBABLY be counted by people as two distinct ones. If that's the case, Solace and Rapture have the same thing going.

And your example was dumb...because it doesn't make any sense. If you use a Glare instead of Solace/Rapture, you don't generate a Lily. So Glare isn't interchangeable with them, but they're interchangeable with each other. That's like comparing Forked/Fleeting Raiju to Spinning Edge to make an argument that Forked and Fleeting Raiju can't count as separate buttons since you can choose to use Spinning Edge in that GCD instead... Or using another Raiton and saying Raiton must be the same ability. That might be a dumb kind of argument.

EDIT:

In any case, no, there was no disingenuous intent. If they were the same ability or if one was a straight upgrade of the other (for example, if Rapture was 800 potency so that you'd NEVER use Solace), then they wouldn't count as distinct, I suppose. But that's not the case.

Likewise, that one is rarely used doesn't change things; a RDM can arrange their general rotation and Acceleration uses to where they're always using the same one of Veryholy/flare if they wanted to. There'd be no benefit from doing so, mind you, but you could absolutely do it unless your procs were just stupidly one-sided to the "wrong" element. A NIN can never use Fleeting Raiju and toss the button from their bars (I'm sure some people do). But, there's really no standard on "what counts", and I tend to keep all abilities on my bars, so...that's the way I was counting them. /shrug

[Sebazy]

It's saying "Suppose we gave SGE a BLM level rotation and it healed with just oGCDs and Kardia. But also did the same damage and healing of WHM. Many players would play it (because they want more DPS rotation), but then complain that they aren't being rewarded with a higher output.

Then you're being blinded by your prejudices. Sorry but there's no way to sugar coat it.

I ran the Bojza raid content as a DNC with healer actions to heal and I promise you that I didn't care one little bit what my damage was nor could I tell you what sort of numbers I was doing as it just didn't matter to me. It was a completely different change of pace even if it was fairly simplistic content and it was all the more enjoyable for it. If you gave me a healer that was basically DNC with aura and heal procs that had DNC's DPS rotation but did about the same damage as a WHM chad turreting, I think it'd be more popular than you suspect.

Isn't it a tiny bit disingenuous to bloat WHM's DPS kit by adding both Afflatus Solace and Rapture in there?

Agreed. in terms of our DPS kit they are one and the same thing, a lot of the time it simply doesn't matter which one we are pressing as we're overhealing full HP bars either way. As an example: 24 casts of Rapture, 0 Solace. 80% overheal on those Rapture casts. And this is RubEX. More casual content such as dungeons and 24 mans paints an even worse picture.

[Renathras]

...

Bozja?

Boaja is a special case. WHM was one of (if not the) most powerful damage dealers in there, and there were some silly strong "healer" builds for Tanks and DPSers. Especially if people were doing meme runs.

Go to the DPS forum right now. Ask them if SMN should be allowed to do the same damage as BLM and SAM. Watch what their response is. And we saw this same thing with Healers in ShB.

.

As for the other, I don't care enough to argue about it. I wasn't being any disingenuous at all, but if you're desperate to say 4 instead of 5, have at it. I just don't care enough to keep arguing over a button.

[Aravell]

To an outsider, you look like you...

Well, never mind.

Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Rapture have different use cases, and they're distinct actions. That's why I counted them differently. If I count them as one ability, then I'd have to count Verholy/Verflare as one ability. There are, in theory, cases where you'd use Solace or cases where you'd use Rapture because of their secondary effect, just as there are cases where you'd use Engagement vs Displacement. They have different non-damage effects even though their damage is the same and they're used at the same point in a rotation, with the choice between them being situational based on the fight situation at the time. There's a similar case with Forked and Fleeting Raiju as well (which ARE GCDs)

Forked and Fleeting do the same damage, but aren't the same ability, and would PROBABLY be counted by people as two distinct ones. If that's the case, Solace and Rapture have the same thing going.

And your example was dumb...because it doesn't make any sense. If you use a Glare instead of Solace/Rapture, you don't generate a Lily. So Glare isn't interchangeable with them, but they're interchangeable with each other. That's like comparing Forked/Fleeting Raiju to Spinning Edge to make an argument that Forked and Fleeting Raiju can't count as separate buttons since you can choose to use Spinning Edge in that GCD instead... Or using another Raiton and saying Raiton must be the same ability. That might be a dumb kind of argument.

I look like I....what? If you wish to throw an insult, simply do so.

The point is that there's no talk of use cases here, the point of your post seems to be listing the actions which contribute to DPS, thus putting both Rapture and Solace there is redundant as they both contribute the same to WHM's DPS kit (1 petal to the lily). Like you said, you can do pointless things to make it so you only ever have to use Verflare or Verholy, but that would be dumb and result in damage loss. You could also just spam Mythril Tempest combo on WAR instead of ever using Storm's Eye, but we can both acknowledge that would be stupid to even entertain. I'll agree with you on the Raiju one though.

As for my example, it's correct under your terms. 4 Glares and a Misery is the same potency, so you can go through the entire fight and never use a single Misery as long as you use 4 Glares where all the Afflatus skills are used, thus, Glare and Afflatus spells have the same value. You can also only use one or the other since they're both GCDs.