Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Nizzi]

The thing is though, that was the argument of the poster who originally said it as they were just using button count and not how the buttons interact with the job. Going back to Summoner and Elemental Mastery, yes, it is just 1 button, however, it changes for different summons, an oGCD, a long cast ground DoT and then a 2 GCD melee strike with a gap closer. Baring Titan's oGCDs, the others need to have some thought put into where you use them. Do you swift cast the Slipstream or do you think you will need it for Ifrit, is the boss going to stand still long enough to get all the DoT ticks in, can I safely dash in or do I need to delay it. There are considerations in place that will affect your rotation if you just look at more than surface level.

Note, I am not arguing that Summoner is not a simple job, it is, however, just scratch away at the surface and you can see where the thought lies.

I've heard this from people who like the new Summoner all expac. It's just not true. What you've listed are just things that define the caster role; positioning and cast times. The difference being here that Red Mage and Black Mage have to actively adjust their rotations and what they're doing on a per GCD basis; Summoner gets its on-rails rotation reset every 60s and if you have to drop your Ifrit dash for a Ruin III, the potency lost is so minor in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. There's no fail state for messing up Summoner, you're rewarded for existing by having virtually limitless free movement and damage where RDM and BLM have to work for uptime and movement, especially in this tier.

Once my static cleared P7S back in September I eventually opted to just do reclears on Summoner over Black Mage simply because Summoner is competitive and puts no work in versus the amount of struggling RDM and BLM have to do, especially with mechanics like Purgation that require you to pool all of your resources to keep full uptime and drain you dry only to dump you into Harvests immediately after. Boss hitboxes are so huge this expac that you don't have to think about "is the boss going to stand still long enough to get all the ticks in" (I would use Slipstream on Jumps 1 in P8S and Hephaistos' hitbox is so dummy thicc that he'd be in Slipstream still when he moved back to the center) and 3/5 bosses this tier literally do not move (P6S, P7S, P8Sp2). What you're saying doesn't reflect the game at the point it's in right now, and that's the problem.

Summoner is a cancer for balance within the caster role. It cannot continue to exist in this state while doing more damage than RDM, having nearly similar utility, having better movement and having no fail state beyond dying which is the fail state for every job in the game; your entire fight timeline is not messed up in the way that it is for RDM and BLM because it resets every 60s. Either make Summoner a physical ranged job and balance it according to the ranged DPS, make it an actual caster again, or make it worse than RDM because it has no reason to be doing similar or better numbers than a job that has no personal mitigation and is working much harder to do comparable damage. This tier especially has shown that the ability to raise is not as useful as it once was, meaning RDM has no genuine advantages over Summoner, especially not to justify it doing worse damage.

I don't even hate the concept and what they were going for on Summoner, and I think Astral Flow could potentially be one of the better job mechanics they've ever come up with. I just sincerely hate the execution and how it has destroyed the entire caster role for this expac.

[Chasingstars]

Your entire fight timeline is not messed up in the way that it [SMN] is for RDM and BLM because it resets every 60s.

I assume you are aware its not actually flat since you also play summoner. But just merely as a teaching tool for others who are less familiar:

Aethercharge/Bahamut/Phoenix are not acutally flat cooldowns. They are in fact affected by how much spellspeed a summoner has. It starts at 60 seconds, but it can be lowered.

With my current 2398 spellspeed, from a max speed blades acumen and food and materia and non-savage/extreme speedgear, my summon bahamut/phoenix is on a 51.84 cooldown. Ruin is on a 1.29/2.16 for cast/recast. Summon Gem is 2.16.

For older content at their max level by hitting the speed cap values are:

In ARR (50): ruin is 1.25/2.09, summon gem is 2.09 recast, aethercharge is 50.16
In HW (60): ruin is 1.24/2.07, summon gem is 2.07 recast, dreadwyrm trance is 49.86
In SB (70): ruin is 1.25/2.09, summon gem is 2.09 recast, summon demi is 50.28
For SHB (80), as I don't believe I hit the speedcap, its: 1.27/2.11, summon gem is 2.11 recast, summon demi is 50.82

These parts of the job is seperate from the rest of it which is flat cooldowns like radiant aegis (60s) or searing light (120s).

To have it be the equivalent of a flat 60 for bahamut, you must have 0 spellspeed investment. Which means Ruin is 1.5/2.5 and Astral Impulse & Fountain of Fire for example are also 2.5 for their gcd.

To achieve a 2.45 for AI & FoF, it should be somewhere around a 220 spellspeed investment, which means Bahamut/Phoenix has a 58.98 second cooldown. To have about a 1.45 second cooldown for ruin 3 with a now 2.43 recast time, that is around a 396 spellspeed investment, and Bahamut/Phoenix is 58.38.

Like using the 58.38 timer in content that takes 10 mins, the summoner by the end will have about an approximate 15 second lead compared to the rest of their party. This lead number becomes greater when the summon/aethercharge has a lower cooldown.

Like if I am in stormblood content, with 50.28 cooldown, I have about a 9.5s lead that can compound over just a 6 minute fight into a 57 second lead, meaning I am already into my 8th Demi-Bahamut while a person at 0 speed is just about to get into their 6th Demi-Bahamut.

[Renathras]

...

1) Honestly, Old SMN felt as much like a Ranged as a Caster to me then. I generally played RDM in ShB when I was doing DPS, but I also dabbled in SMN a lot because I liked the class fantasy and was also trying to play it better since I was debating which Jobs to main more in EW - my mistaken assumption at the time I'd only level one Tank, one Healer, and one DPSer, and how SCH/SMN would be efficient for that (that didn't pan out at all, mind you, but it was a consideration and I DID level SCH/SMN first in the end...), and I felt it was FAR more mobile and flexible than RDM was because of how Dualcast requires a full length cast while Old SMN could shift around Egi-Assault uses (because of the 2 charge system) a lot to always have a movement option when needed. And the few times I tried doing anything on BLM, it felt like an anchor tied to my feet. So Old SMN already had this feel to me. You had to think about where to use/save your instants (though New SMN reverses this with having to think about where NOT to use Ifrit), but it was already the most mobile and felt NEARLY as mobile as a Ranged if you were planning encounters well anyway. So I suppose New SMN just feels like an evolution of that to me.

As far as the lore: The "true" Summoners of Alleg worked by summoning actual Primals and then binding them. Huge story example of this was Bahamut. Granted, with a lot of extra cruelty to cherry the top of that warcrime sunday (that whole "keep the dragon denizens in a state of semi-suspended animation of pain and misery for thousands of years so their fervent desire for escape would keep fueling their prayers of Bahamut summoning to rescue them" thing). And you do use Egis with the exception of Bahamut and Phoenix - which I assume you had no lore problem with as that would have also had you dislike Old SMN? - you don't get the Primal version of the 3 until level 90. Which would have ACTUALLY been a good case of "Let's lock these to a level 90 JOB QUEST once you take the ship to Ultima Thul, as at that point in the story, we know what Primal summoning is, how it's a perversion of Creation Magic. They could have had a quest for SMNs there where you kinda-sorta reach an agreement with the three that you defeated first in your adventure, have a heart to heart, they realize that their people are under no danger now that the Beast Tribes and City-States have reached peace agreements, and agree to help you fight going forward since you're defending the Star and thus their people. "kinder, gentler" summoning rather than the brutish warcrime version the Allegans engaged in. And being summoned just from your personal stores of Aether instead of boxes of Crystals would limit their presence to just popping up to deliver an attack and empower you for a short time rather than their persistent forms the Beast Tribes used.

A lot of Jobs could benefit from a level 90 Job quest, but SMN most of all, I think...

2) Having played all three, Old SMN definitely felt higher than BLM, though I could see people arguing for either based on how good they are with priority systems and DoT management vs strict rotations. BLM's rotation was a bit stricter, I think? But that made Old SMN's feel smoother and more adaptable. Which is also what made Old SMN feel much more mobile.

But even comparing it with BLM, widely considered in the tier of "hardest Jobs in the game", should indicate that Old SMN was hard. If we think of Jobs as easy, medium, and hard, Old SMN easily fell into the "hard" category. The leveling process didn't help - remember how you had to get 2 Dreadwyrm Aether before summoning Bahamut and, at some point...you just don't anymore? From then on, the rotation is DWT into Bahamut? And then you had the "use all oGCDs in Bahamut" phase before they changed that to "use 8-9 (spell speed!) GCDs during Bahamut AND FBT? None of that was really intuitive. I'm not sure who thought "Oh yeah, that cross-class skill which isn't even technically part of my class/Job's own abilities and that mitigates boss damage (Virus) should be a oGCD weave during Bahamut regardless of what damage is going on in the raid since it will get me an extra Wyrmwave strike" logically after just reading the tooltips.

Those sorts of little things are what made Old SMN a hard Job, because it's stuff you really had no way of knowing unless you ran a parse and spent a LOT of time experimenting with target dummies OR read the work of people who did.

New SMN has room for optimization, it's just not much. Again, a kiddie pool may only have 6 inches of water in it, but that does not mean it has zero water in it. The irony is that SMN went from probably the hardest Caster to the easiest while RDM went from the easiest to intermediate. I'm still iffy on whether ShB RDM or EW RDM was harder, honestly. ShB Manafication required more thought, but EW RDM encourages triple burst in 2 min windows, so it's kind of more a side grade than getting significantly easier or harder. Though as literally nothing else changed in the rotation...side grade is kind of where I've come down on it. If you're good at lining stuff up with burst windows, it's easier, if you're not great at tracking burst windows, ShB RDM was easier and EW's is harder.

3) I think the main problem there was when Searing Light was a Carby skill...which is why they removed it from being a Carby skill. I think the optimal position is after the 3rd now (used to be 2nd when we opened with a Ruin 3 before Searing Light, but once that was removed from Carby, we can open directly into DWT)

3b) MCH and BRD don't have to stand still around 1/9th of their time to cast. It's not MUCH, but it's not ZERO. A common refrain I'm having to say over and over. Greater than zero is not zero. It may not be significantly greater than zero, but it IS greater than zero.

3c) As Mikey_R noted, SMN spends more time casting per minute than SAM does.

3cii) Which version are we talking about? The original or the OP? The reason Alleg banned Summoning was because the most powerful Summoners DID bind and use Primals, wasn't it? We also see a similar pattern on the Thirteenth with the Memoriates. In both cases, it was like the Dark Side of the Force in Star Wars that just inherently corrupts people. BUUUUT, as I noted above (thank you, SE, for NOT giving us level 90 Job Quests... /sarcasm), what we're using now is most likely a semi-perfected form of Creation Magic rather than Primal Summoning in the Beast Tribe sense. Also, my money on next Demi would probably be Alexander, but who can say?

3d) Doesn't change the fact they can do it, and it is openended. There are also a lot of ways to use two buttons. Just with the three we have, one has four sets of an instant cast 2.5 sec GCD and an oGCD weve, one has four instant cast 1.5 sec GCDs and a long cast GCD, and one has 2 long cast GCDs and two instant GCDs in a 1-2 combo, the 1 of which includes a gap closer. There are a LOT of ways to mix and match this up. One could have 3 1.5 sec CAST GCDs with a single weave, one could have 5 casts with a second skill that can be used as many times as you wish and does damage based on how many of the 5 have been cast, etc. There are a lot of possible things you can do with even just two buttons. Moreover, they could add more - right now, only the Demis use Enkindle, but that button could be repurposed in the future as yet another thing to do while a Primal is out. Not taking additional hotbar spaces isn't the same as not being an extra ability. Verholy/flare don't take up additional hotbar spaces (as of 5.0), but they CLEARLY are not Veraero/thunder. Likewise, Paradox is clearly not Fire 1/Blizzard 1, despite adding no new hotbar space.

The point here is that the system being modular allows for extensive growth and has effectively made the Job futureproofed at least for a half-dozen expansions. You may personally not find it meaningful - though I would say you aren't thinking of how different they can be... - but in terms of "Is it designed into a corner or can they add new things in future expansions", New SMN can very clearly add new things, and because of the systems it has established, it can do so basically infinitely since it isn't restricted by hotbar slots like other Jobs would be.

The big reason this works is because the Primals AREN'T just "reskins". They actually DO change your rotation. Imagine if on RDM when you hit Manification, for the next 30 seconds all your weaponstrikes were Enchanted. Now you just go ham as a Melee. Or maybe make it a toggle so you can swap between being a "Melee" and being a Caster. Would you say "Nah, that's just a reskin"? It would actually change up your rotation - the order of buttons you press and the feel of the combat since they have things like different GCDs (sword attacks are less than 2.5 sec GCDs when Enchanted). SMN's Primals work this way, too. IF using a Primal just gave you the same thing - like if all of them had the 4x GCD/oGCD that Titan did, just with Earth, Wind, and Fire visual effects being the only difference? If that was the case, you would be 100% right.

But they don't. Those two buttons now feel completely different to press and the order you use them (the "rotation" of the buttons) changes.

Like I pointed out: Ask yourself this same question for other Jobs. What will PLD get in 7.0? Another sword attack at the end of its Requiescat combo? What will RDM get? Another press of Jolt, or will it be another press of Holy/Flare to try and get a proc on the other element? (Granted, that actually WOULD be a somewhat meaningful change, but after that, they'd have to add stacks to Verfire/Stone before you could keep going with that process). What will MNK get that isn't just a straight upgrade to an existing ability? What will WAR get? A second charge on Primal Rend? A third charge on Infuriate? What will they add to MCH? Another tool? A second charge on Drill? A third charge on Reassemble? Another finisher on the end of Queen?

A lot of Jobs are in the "designed into a corner" that will require by 8.0 or 9.0 a lot of reworks, which is probably why they're going so heavy on the reworks now - and their hand was forced with PLD, since it really DOESN'T have a lot of room for growth. Someone here said (not sure if it as you or someone else) that New SMN seemed a rush Job they didn't think through, but it's very clearly thought out with a 120 min rotation fitting neatly into two 60 sec cycles. Like, the pieces interlock perfectly into a 60 sec chunk, and as I've pointed out, the future proofing is there for future growth potential. But look at New PLD. While you don't have to drop Atonements anymore (apparently, the optimal rotation is just "have a HS sometime during FoF/Requiescat, but it doesn't matter much what else goes there, so just keep your standard rotation going"), there's really nothing to ADD other than a new animation for Royal Authority or a third charge of Intervene. THAT was the rush job.

Now, it works, don't get me wrong, and once they buff the numbers, it'll be "fine", but unlike New SMN, it doesn't seem like they designed it for long-term future growth, more a thing they needed to get out the gate relatively quickly that would work in the moment.

And as far as what they'd add: For the Demis or the Primals?

If I had to guess what the Demis would be going forward, Alexander is the next one on my list. After that it could be several things, Shinryu would probably be up there, even if it might feel kinda weird (but hey, Zenos was our combatsexual lover, so summoning him wouldn't be THAT much more odd than summoning the Twins dead grandpa...?), though it could be Genbu and the 3 other Lords be the Primals for that segment. That's a little weirder to me because, though we fight them in Trials, they're not exactly "Primals" in the normal sense. Then again, IF WE ACTUALLY HAD JOB QUESTS AGAIN, it could be a matter of them making pacts with us and lending us their power, and some lore explanation of their Animasu being partly absorbed by us when we fought or whatever. And probably after that, Eden would be the logical choice for the next one, which could provide a lot of opportunities for Primal options given the Eden raid encounters.

So there really IS a lot of room there to grow, and each expansion adds new options.

3ciii) I'm kinda thinking you're right. Level squish for 9.0? Or maybe 10.0...

So, what Jobs are there that could survive that?

Well, right now, New SMN. Post level squish/ability squish, SMN could have the exact skills it has right now and work - as you lot are fond of saying, it already plays like a level 70 Job...

4) A level 90 Job playing like a level 50 Job did WHEN LEVEL 50 WAS THE LEVEL CAP isn't a problem, imo. Given the amount of abilities that have been pruned and such over time, the Jobs at level 50 now don't have as many abilities as they had at level 50 in 2.5. But a Job doesn't need a half dozen new buttons every expansion. At level 50, we had around 20-something abilities for the typical Job (probably 25-30 when Cross-Class is accounted for), and 25-30 is a goodly number of buttons to press. Some Jobs having more is fine (*cough*AST*cough*), but not every one needs that, no.

____a) Is subjective, not everyone gets bored at the same place or with the same things.
____b) Right, which is why I'd say "when level 50 was the level cap", which ROUGHLY equals most Jobs at level 70 today. Like SMN and RDM.
____c) lol, fair enough.

5) Honestly? I have no real preference. My argument is not - and never has been - that Old SMN should have been removed from the game. I always felt the "Green Caller" was a weird fit and not really a Summoner. New SMN feels a hell of a lot more like a Summoner than Old SMN did. Old SMN didn't even get its first true Summon until Bahamut in SB. My contention has always been that they should have taken the Green Mage bits and actually created a new Caster GRM and ported that playstyle to it. But that's a different argument.

My contention isn't that Old SMN should have been removed, and never has been. I've been absolutely explicit on this point.

My contention is that New SMN is fine as a Job in the game.

It's why I even posed the hypothetical of if New SMN was added as the new Caster Job (say "Evoker" or something) and Old SMN had been left in the game, I would ALSO be saying Evoker is fine as a Job in the game today. That is, in vacuum, New SMN is not a bad Job. It's not broken, braindead, needs fixing, etc. It's fine. It's definitely not Old SMN, and had it not replaced Old SMN, people might be able to look at it more objectively and see that, too.

I don't think ALL of the hate is from that (you have people like Tearagion there), but I do think the abject inability of the community to look at New SMN objectively IS because it replaced/deleted Old SMN. If Old SMN was still in the game, you'd get people like the Healer forum badmouthing it and elitists that don't want casual people do to hard content badmouthing it, but I think far more people would be able to look at it objectively and see that it's a well put together Job and works well as it is, with good room for future additions to be made to keep it fresh.

As for RDM - it's actually ironic to me that they made RDM arguably harder (though that's just the 2 min meta curse striking again, I think) at the same time they vastly simplified SMN...

I don't think every Job needs a high skill ceiling. I think it's fine a few don't. I think it's a problem when THEY ALL don't, but I don't think some few being that way is bad. As I said before, WoW Hunters and Paladins were accused of being easy with low skill ceilings for years (and may still be, I dunno), but it was good for the game that they existed and led to a lot of growth and friends picking up the game that might not have otherwise. That's a good thing for an MMO, not a bad thing.

6) This section has intentionally been left blank.

6b) It's possible, but that isn't what New SMN is. Moreover, when we look at most played, we aren't only looking at raiders. I think there WOULD be a point where a Job would be too braindead for normal people to enjoy it. Like I enjoy playing Healers (except AST), but that's because I have buttons other than Glare to hit and the role's focus (in theory) is on health bars. I don't think a true one-button DPS Job would, in fact, be all that popular. I think there is a critical point where the direction of that curve shifts.

7) Well, in that case it doesn't matter, and those people aren't clearing high end content anyway. A New SMN only casting Ruin III for entire fights is going to do no better than a RDM casting only Jolt II for entire fights. In fact, they have the exact same potency and overall GCD use, so they'd output identical performances doing so.

On a side note: I just like thinking about things and discussing things with people. Helps that I'm a fast typist. My first Titania and SoS Extreme clears were in PFs with no voice chat and I ended up knowing the fights so well (from so many failed groups) that I determined to get the clears and was actively raid-calling in /party. Granted, there were plenty of typoes, but I called all the major mechanics between casts in text and everyone said when we got the clear it helped so much. /shrug

I've heard this from people who like the new Summoner all expac. It's just not true. What you've listed are just things that define the caster role; positioning and cast times. The difference being here that Red Mage and Black Mage have to actively adjust their rotations and what they're doing on a per GCD basis;

I think this is part of the disconnect. You guys who don't like New SMN keep coming back to this point. That RDM and BLM have to decide basically skill to skill which button to use based on the situation. IN PRACTICE, that's WAY overselling RDM and completely misrepresenting BLM. BLM works like SMN in that it needs to know the future of the fight to determine when to use skills. A BLM that is just seeing a boss cast bar for a mechanic and JUST THEN making the decision on what ability to use is doing BLM wrong. And RDM, in practice, is only deciding when to delay a melee phase and when to use Acceleration. While that's WAY more variable, it does require you to stock a resource it would have been more optimal use. And say you use Acceleration for max burst so you don't have it for movement? You have Enchanted Reprise or Swiftcast for that - you are the only Reser in the game that doesn't need to save Swiftcasts for Raising.

SMN does this same thing, but more like BLM does, in that it needs to be looking forward at the whole fight and fitting its abilities around mechanics in 15 second chunks. If you drop your Ifrit Dash, you're dropping 580 potency for 310. That's a pretty substantial hit. RDM using Swiftcast on a Verthunder/Aero......can actually be a DPS gain. Dropping a Fire/Stone for a Jolt II is a mere 20 potency loss. Enchanted Reprise is a bit more complicated since it takes 5/5 Mana from you to use, but itself does the same potency as Fire/Stone, which is actually higher than Jolt. But given that Mana translates to damage, it's still a DPS loss, but is it a 270 point DPS loss like using Ruin III instead of Crimson Cyclone/Strike? I'd water it comes out being pretty close to comparable.

The "fail state" for messing up on SMN is comparable to the "fail state" for messing up that same way on RDM.

Once my static cleared P7S back in September I eventually opted to just do reclears on Summoner over Black Mage simply because Summoner is competitive and puts no work in versus the amount of struggling RDM and BLM have to do,

This is always such a weird argument to me. "I hate a thing so much, it's the thing I decided to use because it was more enjoyable than doing it on the things I claim this thing should be more like". And yes, I did say "more enjoyable"; if the others were genuinely more enjoyable, you'd play them instead. The "struggling" is what you're arguing Jobs should have, so if you were actively avoiding it, it indicates that said "struggling" is, in fact, a negative, not a positive. A thing even you were avoiding when given the choice.

And that's the big reason that argument is so weird to me:

It claims people will only do the "better" thing if FORCED INTO IT, and if given a choice, will do the "worse" thing...but the obvious implication is that people actually want the "worse" thing...which implies it's actually the better thing.

Yeah yeah, boredom, not wanting to make things harder on your party, etc etc - you can make such arguments, but the fact is that WHEN GIVEN THE CHOICE, you chose to use SMN instead of RDM or BLM.

I'm really big about giving players CHOICES, meaning if they are only picking RDM/BLM if they are forced to do so, that makes me think RDM/BLM are bad Jobs that need to be fixed, not that SMN, the Job people are actively picking instead, is the one that's damaged.

Summoner is a cancer for balance within the caster role.

SMN isn't a "cancer", the issue right now is that RDM needs a serious power boost. (And as I noted above, the "fail state" for SMN is comparable to the "fail state" for RDM, and that shouldn't really even be relevant ANYWAY, but insomuch as it is, the two are comparable.) For some reason, the Devs think Vercure is hyper-utility and don't want to give RDM more damage, but imo it should be balanced to do comparable damage to SMN since they're in a similar utility and difficulty ballpark; RDM is a bit harder but offers the better Raise utility, SMN is a bit easier but its Raise utility is weaker, thus the two being balanced to do similar damage makes sense.

Either make Summoner a physical ranged job

L...O...L...? o.O

because it has no reason to be doing similar or better numbers than a job that has no personal mitigation and is working much harder to do comparable damage.

"much harder"? o.O

I play RDM and SMN. RDM is a bit harder, but "much harder"? What?

Also, RDM has better Raise utility than SMN - SMN can use one Swiftcast Raise per minute, which makes it less mobile during Garuda/Ifrit (and probably have to drop one of the casts from one of those to make up the GCD) while Verraise can be used several in a row between Jolt casts, a DPS loss but not nearly as much of one as SMN having to hardcast a second Raise would be - and RDM has a partywide damage reduction/mitigation which SMN does not have - Carby shields are single target only, and ONLY for you - not to mention RDM can always swap a Jolt/Fire/Stone (at a DPS loss, yes, but it's THERE) for a Vercure if it needs a little more health to survive a mechanic where SMN can use a Carby shield, but if that's not enough, then what? LolPhysic?

Both have party buffs, SMN's Searing Light +3% damage for 30 sec and RDM's Embolden +5% for 20 seconds - which PROBABLY maths out to a greater party damage increase because that's +5% combined with other party buffs while SMN's is only +3% under the 15-20 sec buff window boost and then drops down to the flat 3% once the other buffs wear off. But for the sake of argument, these are PROBABLY equivalent.

So their party utility is that they have a similar DPS boost to the party, RDM has an additional party mitigation that SMN does not and a personal OR party heal it can use at a DPS loss, SMN has some additional party healing locked to once per 2 minutes if damage happens to fall under Everlasting Flight (which can't be moved around significantly) and a personal mitigation that can't be stacked or shared with the party, and RDM has semi-infinite Raise potential at a GCD's loss of potency/mana while SMN has a single cast of it (which requires Swiftcast) for a single GCD's worth of lost potency with any further Raising during that 60 seconds requiring sacrificing at least 3 GCDs.

Sounds like them doing a similar amount of damage would make perfect sense - SMN is a bit easier but RDM has a bit more utility in exchange for the SLIGHTLY harder rotation.

This tier especially has shown that the ability to raise is not as useful as it once was, meaning RDM has no genuine advantages over Summoner, especially not to justify it doing worse damage.

"not as useful as it once was" != not useful. It depends on when it happens in the fight.

THAT SAID: I agree that RDM should not be doing WORSE damage than SMN, and needs to be buffed anyway. There's no reason RDM should be doing DANCER levels of DPS. That's just beyond stupid, and that argument exists regardless of SMN even being in the conversation right now.

I don't even hate the concept and what they were going for on Summoner, and I think Astral Flow could potentially be one of the better job mechanics they've ever come up with. I just sincerely hate the execution and how it has destroyed the entire caster role for this expac.

Nizzi.......New SMN isn't what "has destroyed the entire caster role for this expac."

My list, off the top of my head:

1) Even BLM is doing less damage than most Melees instead of tied at 1st with SAM like ShB.

2) RDM is doing comparable damage to DANCER, the Ranged role, which is just stupid.

3) Boss hitboxes the size of planets making Melees basically Ranged that do more damage.

4) 2 min meta that screws with the damage rotation profiles of all the Casters (all the Jobs in the game, but Casters seem to be particularly affected).

5) The movement and particularly TIMING of movement and resource needs during fights - as you noted with P7S Purgation/Harvests.

Those things all have a much greater issue with Caster balance. Imagine for a moment if Old SMN still existed but all those above things were happening. Old SMN would be out-DPSing BLM (probably, it was way more mobile and flexible), but still doing less damage than most of the Melees, and all those issues listed above would still exist. RDM would still be doing DANCER levels of damage and RDM and BLM (and ALSO SMN) would not be far more difficult than the reward in performance/output you're getting for playing them.

That says to me the issue is not New SMN, it's all that OTHER stuff.

Honestly pal it just gets lost in the sea of words.

True, but there's a lot to comment on in these threads.

Warrior (and arguably dark knight) has its rotation settling down at level 70, which is less than ideal - although seeing as they're tanks it's not the end of the world. At this point, warrior has beast gauge and infuriate counters to keep track of, as well as tank responsibilities and storm's eye upkeep such as it is. Likewise, dark knight has black blood, mp and darkside to track as well as their tank responsibilites.

And New SMN has Primals, Energy Drain, Aetherflow stacks, Ruin IV, Searing Light, and Trance CDs to keep track of. We can make simple things sound complex lining them up end to end, but in practice, Beast Gauge is "don't overcap", Infuriate is "don't overcap, burn during burst", Storm's Eye is Dia, and "Tank responsibilities" have mostly come down to "turn on Tank stance when the fight starts, when you get the big red box around you, press a CD". (Read the Tank forums and people like wielding that hyperbole pretty regularly there)

As for machinist and red mage I don't play them to an adequate level to answer - however I am aware that they are significantly more involved than level 90 summoner at this stage, with 2 gauges and higher apm on mch and casts and stuff on rdm.

Don't use the phrase "significantly more involved". "marginally" might fit for RDM. MCH's rotation is LARGELY a FCFS system of using Air Anchor/Drill/Chainsaw when up; use Reassemble on one if up, and making sure not to use Hypercharge if you're less than 8 sec from one of those three coming up. There's a bit of nuance, but MCH is pretty close to SMN in terms of rotational difficulty. It has a higher APM entirely because of Hypercharge, but this is just going 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3-1-2/3 between Heat Blast and your two oGCDs of Gauss Round and Ricochet.

RDM's is a bit more involved because you want to do a little more setup. Its casts aren't complex - in fact, that's the LEAST complex of its systems - just operating as a pendulum and you remembering to only weave in the Dualcast spell windows, not clipping by trying to weave after the short cast. The real optimization comes from trying to pool resources for the burst phase to get the most melee/cast combos in as you can during those windows. The general rotation itself is super easy 1-2 1-3, where you press 1a or 1b if you get a proc. It's not nothing, but it's not exactly gigabrain if you can get the procs somewhere on your HUD that's noticeable. The burst itself is easy, as 50/50 is easy to remember and a quick glance can tell you whether you're using Holy or Flare. You also have Acceleration, Swiftcast, and in a pinch Enchanted Reprise to use for movement, and for movement that doesn't require a disengage, you can go into your melee combo. And if you can get your melee combo in before the movement WITH disengage, then your next 3 casts are freemovement Holy/Flare-Scorch-Resolution. It's always an "ahhh...this is nice..." moment on RDM when you have a movement phase just AFTER you complete your melee combo because it's a really simple series of button presses you don't even have to think about the next 7.5 sec, which is comparable to hitting Titan on SMN. Except with a lower APM and less button presses than SMN during Titan.

...and not to sound like a broken record, but I will again note that I strongly feel RDM does FAR too little damage and should get a hefty boost up to SMN level or NIN level or something like that.

I'm not sure if it's worth emphasising that the majority of jobs you suggested are dual responsibility, rather than dps.

It is. That'd be a valid point.

...if I was arguing for every DPS Job to be equivalent to SMN.

As noted, I said having ONE Job in each role at SMN's level is not a problem or bad thing.

SAM is also ideally in melee range for all but 1 GCD max of filler, and has actual job mechanics to contend with, but go off about how SMN casting three or four times is really impactful and requires lots of thinking past a single pull of any fight, if that. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel to pick out only that.

With boss hitboxes the size of planets, "ideally in melee range" at this point means "you haven't jumped off the platform/deathwalled". <_<