Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Renathras]

1 hour: Oh I need to press all 3 buttons that light up, the order is not important
2 hour: Oh I need to spam my basically single oGCD when i use my buff
3 hour: Oh bahamut is sooo stronkk i think i buff there
4 hour: Im a fucking pro with this class, wheew, now? What other class do I play?

And if you get to that point? BLM: Exists. RDM: Exists. Basically EVERY OTHER JOB IN THE GAME: Exists.

It doesn't offer a mechanic that can be explored well by going months and improving yourself.

Not every Job NEEDS that. In fact, it would probably be very unhealthy for the game if every Job DID take months and months to get anywhere close to optimal with.

With the old smn,

We're not talking about Old SMN.

We all agree Old SMN shouldn't have been removed from the game.

lol, fair enough. Viable, then? Or optimal, perhaps...

Also... Hello there! It's your favorite cultist again trying to make you see the light!

Who are you?

I feel like I should be saying something like "But for me, it was Tuesday" here...

The graph isn't data. It's a meme. Come back when you can turn that into actual data. Again, what's the Y-axis in that "graph"? It's nothing, because it's a meme and has no actual meaning. That graph isn't a valid "argument".

Yeah, the Devs need to seriously reexamine stats and builds, maybe in 7.0. But that's not the problem (of discussion) here. Nor is New SMN not having higher optimization. Again, no arguments yet why it's necessary for it to, only people saying it "should".

Far as I can tell, there's no objective reason that New SMN NEEDS to be more complex and ISN'T working as it is. All the data suggests that it's working as it is and is very well liked and used by the community. It seems odd to insist so strongly that it's bad and broken given that. While popular doesn't always mean GREAT, it generally does mean at least somewhat GOOD. There are reasons perfume doesn't come in "skunk" and "rotten cheese" or "cow manure". Because, it turns out, things that are pretty awful...tend not to be very popular or well liked.

There's an extremely vocal minority that hates it, but in terms of play numbers, it's the Caster players are gravitating more to than the others.

PART OF THAT - I think - is because RDM seriously needs some potency buffs to be above Ranged levels of damage. But that doesn't change the fact people would probably still pick SMN more, and that BLM is still being sidelined as soon as people get the chance.

I again contend that the problem isn't New SMN, and that New SMN is fine. The problem is that Old SMN was removed - something no one's contesting, so I assume we all more or less agree on that point, at least.

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Oh, and for reference, in case anyone is somehow misunderstanding the Hydaelyn/Zodiark remark...it's because "for the love of God" is somewhat less fitting in a FFXIV discussion group, and there are two prevailing - for lack of a better word - cults in the mythos, those being that of Zodiark and ARGUABLY Hydaelyn. Religion doesn't seem QUITE the right word for it. But take from that what you will.

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But hey, at the end of the day, I'm not going to convince any of you because you aren't basing your positions on data or metrics or even player behavior and apparent preferences...and the Devs aren't listening anyway. So I guess it doesn't matter in the end... /shrug

I'm still putting in my vote for Green Mage Caster next Job added..

[Valence]

smn is not easy, smn does not give room for growth



SQE is continuing to flatten the player growth curve, that's the problem. Not being easy or being difficult. It's taking away from the player the gratification of mastering a class.
Raids and dungeons up to unreal can be played safely at any level, so I really don't understand this trend.

Thank you for putting it into better words than me. Difficulty is a red herring (and as pointed out, very, very subjective and variable depending on individuals).

Intricate mechanics and depth to a rotation though, is a little easier to gauge. A lot of jobs don't provide a lot of room for growth, or any at all. SMN is one such example, but DNC isn't far behind either. MCH does the bare minimum welfare (and has other problems with a capped performance ceiling). etc etc

[Valence]

The problem I have with arguments like yours is the framing.

"Enjoyable" is "asinine". "Not convoluted" is "braindead". "Fun" is "boring".

You realize that literally nothing, in spite of what you like to pretend, is objective in that kind of "discussion", right? Everything you have pointed as "factually objective" was biased as hell. I won't pretend hiding behind such false premises in order to construct an altar of questionable moral superiority. We're literally touching to 110% organic, deeply subjective feelings and tastes, and you constantly gesticulating at trying to split the cake between what's objective and what's not is a losing battle.

Even stating that this job has X or Y buttons, while being objective and a fact, suddenly stops being objective as soon as you emit a critical judgement upon it. If you can't grasp that simple fact, you're only going to continue coming as condescendingly pedantic to everybody and with reason.

Moreover, there's no "ENFORCE simple/easy jobs arbitrarily", especially when your own position is to ENFORCE complex/hard Jobs arbitrarily. This is the part that's really confusing to me. Why is it okay for your desired Job design to be forced on all Jobs and players but not the contra? Moreover, the simple side proponents aren't even arguing for ALL Jobs to be made simple, just a few.

You're fighting against strawmen here. You have been the one in the very first pages of this thread to rail against the notion of skill floor and ceilings and designs including both. You have literally here argued, I remember, for some jobs to be easy, and some to be hard. I'm not making up anything. Where I have always argued to have accessible jobs with some depth in counterpart, no matter the job. You can have both, but you were arguing against that, which I took issue with.

Ergo, yes, you're arguing to enforce easy jobs down the throats of people.

Here's the question that would resolve all of this fairly quickly:

WHY must all Jobs have a skill high skill ceiling?

Case in point.

Not "so people can improve". No WHY? Why is that important? Why is that necessary?

I never argued for anything remotely close to people needing to improve. I actually loathe the literal doctrine that constantly shoves improvement down the throat of every casual player people don't deem "gud enough" to their tastes, like it's high end esports or whatever silly notion they have about having fun on a game. You're preaching to the choir on that specific point. I don't even know what prompted that to come into this argument to be honest, but considering the literal essays like this one, it's possible I missed it in all the noise.

In WoW, you can get a little (not completely, but a little) closer to that because of Talents, but FFXIV doesn't have that. You can't choose talents on SMN to give you some extra DoTs or make Fester into old Fester. Those aren't options. You likewise can't choose Talents on BLM to turn it into an Ice Mage. Those aren't options.

What are you even talking about..?

There's not a way to play BLM that's "easy" right now. You have hard and ultra-hard (if you want to go Infinite Paradox transpose lines and explode your brain with 100% movement uptime). But there's no way to play BLM that is at SMN level.

What the hell are you talking about. I've seen casuals play BLM at a baseline level that is horrifying but functional. They don't get the right amount of F4s in astral, sometimes they don't have umbral stacks, dot uptime is not there... so what? They still play the job and swap between ice and fire, and the results are obviously, not optimal. They still understand how the job clicks, that's literally what a floor is about. Meanwhile the gap between floor and ceiling on new SMN is abyssmal. At best what you can screw up is drop your fire dash continuation, or miss a cast. For the rest you just have to press the buttons that light up. The only floor there is is to understand how all the summoning works at low level, which is actually more obscure than it needs to be because a lot of new players look at the Actions & Traits and get a stroke. BLM suffers from the same problem with the fire/ice mechanics, but every job does. I'm not complaining about floors, but ceilings. Once you understand how to summon, there is literally nothing left with the rotation to optimize or push further.

There's no way to play MNK at WHM level.

I know that people meme a lot about green DPS and whatnot, but still...

So the options are mostly just making a Job complex or making it not-complex. EVERY now and then the Devs stumble onto something that lets a Job be pretty simple but with quite a bit of nuance to optimize for a higher skill ceiling.

So make up your mind? What is it then? No option to make an easy job to approach but with quite a bit of nuance to optimize for higher skill ceiling, or is this possible? Make up your mind?

Ironically, considering how often people call RDM simple, it's the perfect and RARE example of an "easy to play WELL but with a lot of nuance to truly master". The basic concept of how the Job works is very simple to grasp and play, and you can do respectable damage just alternating your short/long casts, then rolling into your melee combo at 50/50, using the opposite Holy/Flare then Scorch, then Resolution, and popping your two oGCD attacks when they come up. On a surface level, it's very simple to play.

...then you start looking into optimization and the opener. "Why do I use Acceleration AND Swiftcast? Wait, there's a priority system between the two? I'm supposed to fit HOW MANY melee combos in the burst phase?? What's the optimal use of Acceleration? How much White/Black should I have at what time? How should I be using Manafication vs Embolden?" It's surprisingly nuanced to play at a 90-100 on it, even if the basic concept of it is far more simple. As much as it's derided, WAR has a similar situation. So does New PLD - also derided. Kinda sensing a trend here... The thing with New PLD is more that the differences are so negligible it doesn't matter and that's probably true of WAR. RDM it's not quite as true of, but relatively so.

So then it is possible, if RDM is one such example? If this is possible, why are you arguing against it?

What is absent from these conversations is WHY no Job may be ALLOWED to have a low skill ceiling.

It's said this is bad, but not WHY. "Boring" is subjective and many people find low skill ceiling Jobs engaging and fun. So that's not an answer. "No room for growth" runs into the same problem, as (a) there's at least SOME room for growth anyway and (b) again, subjective, as both not everyone finds that engaging and enjoyable anyway and different people at different skill levels may not see the growth the same way, meaning the skill ceiling/growth may not even be perceived the same way. Someone may struggle to get RDM down while another may find it child's play to master even BLM.

Again, make up your mind? Is this about low skill ceilings, or is it impossible to determine difficulty because it's very subjective (I tend to agree actually, I've been the first one to complain about the second rate dps jobs being subpar damage because of assumed arbitrary difficulties), therefore making skill ceilings a fantasy?

So WHY is the question. Not "Why should there be a simple Job", since the answer to that is obvious - having a low skill floor and ceiling Job in each role makes roles more accessible to new entrants, be they new players, new gamers, or people just wanting to dabble in a role for the first time.

Ceiling has nothing to do with accessibility.

To me, having multiple levels existing is the no brainer.

SMN is easy
RDM is medium
RDM optimized is hard
BLM normal is hard
BLM transpose infinite Paradox is galaxy brain

In fact, of ALL the roles in the game right now, I think Caster is the one that actually nails this. For Tanks, GNB is a bit harder and DRK CAN be harder depending on how you look at it, but WAR is pretty easy (with a bit of nuance) and PLD is near WAR levels. There's not a galaxy brain option, and there's debatably not a hard option. Healers.......should I go into that one? Most people consider them to have, at best, super easy, easy, and maybe a medium (SCH and/or AST) option. Melee don't really have an EASY option. RPR is the closest, but is probably more of a medium, and all the Melee Jobs other than RPR have pretty high skill ceilings to really master them, with MNK being obvious but SAM also having a pretty high bar for high level play. Ranged is just weird since all three Jobs are pretty simple to pick up but medium-ish to master, with MCH being the worst to do perfect on because of how its CDs drift if not used perfectly.

Caster is the one role that has a Job at easy, medium, and hard levels of play, and BLM has the option of going up to galaxy brain level if desired.

There's nothing really wrong with this other than "hardcore players want more".

And they have BLM and FREQUENTLY avoid playing it when offered any other choice.

You realize that you said just above that it's too subjective to make any rulings about difficulty, yet you just went on a tangent to determine arbitrary difficulty levels to triage and sort every job into their neat little difficulty labels within their respective roles?

It's a question of WHY what you want is actually necessary to the point it must and should be forced on everyone when even hardcore players avoid it if given the choice.

Why what I want, being every job being accessible yet with some mechanical depth, should be "forced" on everyone? I mean, are you arguing to force on everyone your arbitrary levels of complexity and/or intricacy/depth instead? I don't know man, but between the two, I do feel that my model is a lot more inclusive.

And on top of it, your model introduces yet another contradictory statement of yours, which bases itself on the fact that even raiders will often follow the path of least resistance (true!), yet surprisingly you'd advocate for easy jobs to play in the same roles than harder jobs to play. Why is that, if not to double down even more into totally lopsided play ratios even at high level?

And for the love of Hydaelyn and/or Zodiark (whichever cult you ascribe to more, of course ) - stop using the term "braindead". If you can't see how that poisons the well of literally any discussion ever, sit back in your chair, consider how you'd feel if people incessantly called things you actually find fun and enjoyable braindead, and then realize that you should stop doing it.

I agree with this and I apologize for the few times I've used it.

[Renathras]

Okay going to try to make my posts shorter and more direct:

You realize that literally nothing, in spite of what you like to pretend, is objective in that kind of "discussion", right?

That's...
...literally...
...MY...
...point!

You're attacking me for doing the thing that you have been doing. <_<

/sigh

The reason I ask you questions is to try to establish a baseline. Maybe you like sweet things and I like sour things, but it helps to have at least a working definition of what sweet IS, otherwise we can't discuss it.

And stop trying the appeal to bandwagon/group fallacy. You speak for yourself and the 4-5 people that like all your posts, not everyone else. "to everybody" is clearly not so. And how do you think YOU look "to everybody", btw? But that gets into the realm of personal attacks and has no place here (your 5 loyal likers be damned). This is the third time, I believe, you're purported to speak for "everybody" or "we".

You have literally here argued, I remember, for some jobs to be easy, and some to be hard.

Yes, I have.

Easy and hard.

Not braindead. Not "skill floor equal skill ceiling". You made up those parts.

Ergo, yes, you're arguing to enforce easy jobs down the throats of people.

These quotes are all variations on the same theme, so grouping together:

This makes literally no sense if I'm only suggesting - not enforcing - that _A_ simple Job existing is acceptable. It's also very odd that you say this while YOU are proposing forcing complex Jobs on "down the throats of people". Again, you're doing the thing you attack me of doing. You're demanding that NO Job have a low skill ceiling. This means that you are demanding that all Jobs have a NOT low skill ceiling. I'm suggesting ONE Job having a low skill ceiling is acceptable. Which of those is forcing something down people's throats, exactly?

Why what I want, being every job being accessible yet with some mechanical depth, should be "forced" on everyone?

When you're saying any Job that does not have that is not allowed to exist, then yes. You want to force it on everyone.

Unless you've changed your mind and believe that Jobs with no mechanical depth are acceptable and allowed?

I mean, are you arguing to force on everyone your arbitrary levels of complexity and/or intricacy/depth instead?

No.

Because UNLIKE you with demands for greater complexity, I don't insist that the simple end of the spectrum be forced on every Job in the game.

I don't know man, but between the two, I do feel that my model is a lot more inclusive.

You think a model that disallows easy Jobs and only allows medium or above is more inclusive than a model that allows for easy, medium, and hard and above Jobs? How do you figure that, EXACTLY? How do you figure a model (yours) which excludes one category is MORE INCLUSIVE than a model that excludes none?

And on top of it, your model introduces yet another contradictory statement of yours, which bases itself on the fact that even raiders will often follow the path of least resistance (true!), yet surprisingly you'd advocate for easy jobs to play in the same roles than harder jobs to play. Why is that, if not to double down even more into totally lopsided play ratios even at high level?

This is a fascinating leap in logic.

How is saying "one Job being easy is fine" the same as saying "all Jobs should be made easy"? I want to know EXACTLY how you are arriving at that conclusion, because that's the strawman you're arguing against.

Case in point.

No - question you refuse to answer. I'll ask it again:

WHY must all Jobs have a skill high skill ceiling?

I never argued for anything remotely close to people needing to improve.

This is you YET AGAIN dodging direct questions. Moreover, the questions that actually get to the heart of the matter:

Why is that important? Why is that necessary?

If I'm preaching to the choir, great. Choir, please answer the questions.

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Going to skim through some of this since you guys keep complaining about my post length. If you want me to answer more thoroughly, I can, but then you can't complain about the length.

What the hell are you talking about.

GENERALLY SPEAKING, to make Jobs with highly variable but EQUALLY VIABLE rotations, it requires something of a customization system, like a Talent system or some such. As FFXIV doesn't have this, it doesn't work.

A medium difficulty Job can sometimes be made with variable nuance, but they are not equally viable when played at both ends. The fact that there is only ONE example of it indicates how difficult it is to do successfully. It's not impossible to make a moderate difficulty Job have a scaling to high difficulty, it's just rare to do it where it works. And given RDM's damage, it arguably ISN'T working right now anyway.

Again, make up your mind?

Again I'll present the question so you can dodge it once more:

"What is absent from these conversations is WHY no Job may be ALLOWED to have a low skill ceiling"?

I agree with this and I apologize for the few times I've used it.

Fair enough.

.

There's a lot of "gotcha" attempts in that post I'm going to cut out to try and shorten this, because they're pointless bickering and derailing (what I'm always accused of due to other people doing it...) and are just that. Anyway, hope the shorter version helps. I may just start cutting everything out but the questions and just ask them again and again until you can answer them...since I really DO think that cuts to the heart of the matter:

Why can't there be low skill ceiling Jobs in the game? Why is it necessary that they all not be?

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EDIT: UGH!!!

Like are you for real?

So...you took a quote, apologized for doing it, then brought it up a second time as an attack?

Like...are you for real?

[Valence]

Hard to decipher, massive thread full of collapsibles within collapsibles

I was about to write an essay on my own but this is just getting out of hand for very little.

The thing you do not seem to get is that I am arguing for inclusivity in all jobs. Inclusivity means high accessibility (low floor) and a decent amount of intricacies/depth, or difficulty of perfect execution (ceiling). You took at some point the example of RDM and acknowledged that this was possible to do earlier, for an example. With that in mind, no matter the jobs that people like, they'll be able to find their own niche there, whether they're casual players, midcore, hardcore, top tier raiders, or handicapped players. If this passes for "forcing inclusivity on all jobs down the throat of players" to you, then I'm legitimately concerned about the twisted logic behind. In opposition, you have been arguing to select a couple of jobs and make them very exclusive to low ceiling models. Who's trying to force what there exactly?

Another clarification: I do not believe the slightest in "easy", "normal" and "hard" job difficulties and categories, for that there are just silly and difficulty is so subjective on such broad scopes that it's just laughable to even consider. I merely used this to demonstrate how self contradictory your arguments are all the time. For instance, if you introduce your easy, normal and hard model to every role, and therefore argue for "easy" jobs living within the same roles alongside harder ones, even though difficulty is hella subjective, with your own reasoning a lot of players will choose the path of least resistance, even raiders. Ergo, you're encouraging a model where job ratios of play get even more lopsided than they already are.

I am not even gonna touch the talents/spec tree considerations seeing how well balanced games that use those are.

I have never been dodging the question, you're just not reading the answers.

EDIT: UGH!!!


So...you took a quote, apologized for doing it, then brought it up a second time as an attack?

Like...are you for real?

Aren't you pushing it a little? First you ask people to stop using "braindead", which I even agreed to and apologized for, and then you casually proceed to use it yourself in your next post. When I point it out, you choose to whine because I'm attacking you with it? Really?


Edit: and after this, you're also one to talk for logical fallacies... What a nice way to assume that all the likes I get are from the same forum users? And what about your argumentum ad populum when you use the amount of play ratios for SMN/etc as proof for whatever you're trying to prove? The gal of some people...

[VentVanitas]

There's no way to play MNK at WHM level.

[Ggwppino]

Far as I can tell, there's no objective reason that New SMN NEEDS to be more complex and ISN'T working as it is.

the fact is that it is not necessary for the players to know how to get to a perfect optimization of the class, the game does not require it. But it should be sacrosanct that a player who wants to main a class (perhaps a class that used to be one way and now is completely different) be encouraged to do more and improve.
The smn shouldn't be more complex in general, the smn should provide that players who want to play pok*mon maybe want more than just having elon musk's autopilot.
So having depth in a class leads to more fun for more people and not just one part, basically currently you're foreclosing people from having fun and that's not good.

All the data suggests that it's working as it is and is very well liked and used by the community.

I assume you saw the data on fflog. Well, fflog is used by a community of people who play high-level content. This is clearly a hypothesis, but until it is refuted there is always the benefit of the doubt: high-level players are cynical, why having to bang your head with the rdm if with the same dps there is the smn which has the autorun? With the Blm is the same, if it competes for the caster position and not for melee as a raid does not need so much dps to be cleared. I would like to see if the same percentages would remain if the smn had the dps it deserves based on the producers' statements:
"Adjustments for each job are made individually based on the damage value, which is the standard value according to the item level, based on the difficulty of operation of each job, the difficulty of rotation, the number of support actions, and the details of their effects".
https://jp.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...380.1646902175.

The smn is a full-blown bypass of the minimum skill requirements that a high-level raid requires in general and therefore cynically convenient.

[Renathras]

the fact is that it is not necessary for the players to know how to get to a perfect optimization of the class, the game does not require it. But it should be sacrosanct that a player who wants to main a class be encouraged to do more and improve.

Again: Why?

I'm not asking this over and over to be obnoxious. I'm asking it over and over to show that it ISN'T nor "should" it be "sacrosanct". There's no why to it. No explanation forthcoming. Not reason it needs to be true or must be true.

(perhaps a class that used to be one way and now is completely different)

Once more: Different argument.

I already agree that Old SMN should be in the game still in one form or another. That isn't an argument for why New SMN shouldn't exist.

The smn shouldn't be more complex in general, the smn should provide that players who want to play pok*mon maybe want more than just having elon musk's autopilot.

2x "should" in that statement. WHY?

So having depth in a class leads to more fun for more people

For SOME people.

More is debatable, considering SMN is currently the most played Caster. One must assume at least SOME of that majority are having fun. Turns out, a TON of people have "more fun" with a class that doesn't "have depth". What evidence do you have that more depth = more fun for more people? Were more people playing SMN before the rework or after it?

and not just one part, basically currently you're foreclosing people from having fun and that's not good.

a) No, you're not. There are plenty of other Jobs if people want something harder. Contrast Healers where they're all literally the same rotation.

b) YOU'RE foreclosing people from having fun who like simpler Jobs. Again, SMN is the most played Caster right now. A lot of those people are having fun with it and you seek to rob them of their fun - foreclose them from having fun. How is that good?

Well, fflog is used by a community of people who play high-level content. This is clearly a hypothesis, but until it is refuted there is always the benefit of the doubt: high-level players are cynical, why having to bang your head with the rdm if with the same dps there is the smn which has the autorun? With the Blm the same goes if he competes for the caster position and not for melee as a raid does not need so much dps to be cleared.

This is the point, though - if high level players wanted "the challenge", they'd be playing BLM not SMN. "Why play the harder Job when you could play the easier one?" implies that people PREFER EASIER JOBS. Again, if you only get people playing hard Jobs when you FORCE THEM INTO IT, it means people DON'T LIKE harder Jobs. I'm not sure how better to say "hard Job's aren't fun for the majority" than that.

Moreover: Logs also catch people in 4 mans and 24 mans. That's probably the best measure of the playerbase as a whole. Let's have a look.

Euphrosine: 85,060 SMNs

The next highest is DNC at around 75,500. RPR and RDM are just under 70k, respectable. Where's BLM? Oh, right: 39,474 as of this writing.

Every metric we have and all the data we have any kind of access to says that SMN is the most played DPS Job. It's not just high end players being lazy on farms. Top to bottom, when given the choice of what DPS Job to play, SMN is winning every time. It's winning with hardcore players that SUPPOSEDLY want a hard challenge and high skill ceiling. It's winning with the casual crowd that doesn't care about min-maxing or that SMN does more damage than RDM. It's winning by players with Extreme clears and people who have never set foot outside of the MSQ.

We see a similar pattern with Healers (WHM is the most played) and Tanks (WAR and PLD - now also considered "braindead" are the most played), and even within the subroles of DPS RPR, DNC, and SMN (all considered the easiest in Melee, Ranged, and Caster, respectively) are the most played. An often asked question on Reddit is "What Tank/Healer/Melee/Ranged/Caster/DPS is the easiest?" People aren't asking that question so they can avoid the Jobs they're told are easy.

All this should tell you something.

And the something it should tell you is not "people are lazy" (though that IS true); it should tell you people find easy Jobs fun and desirable.

And even if you think people are often wrong: So what? If it's what THEY WANT, then you shouldn't be taking that from them. Especially while you still HAVE Jobs like MNK and BLM. And again, I AGREE that Old SMN should be readded to the game in some way, so that's not a counter here.

I would like to see if the same percentages would remain if the smn had the dps it deserves based on the producers' statements:
"Adjustments for each job are made individually based on the damage value, which is the standard value according to the item level, based on the difficulty of operation of each job, the difficulty of rotation, the number of support actions, and the details of their effects".

And what makes you think it doesn't? Clearly, they've had several chances to nerf it if they thought it was exceeding their desires. The obvious answer is it's where they deem it should be based on difficulty x number of support actions x details of their effects.

The smn is a full-blown bypass of the minimum skill requirements that a high-level raid requires in general and therefore cynically convenient.

Irrelevant.

If the high end players wanted high skill ceiling, hard Jobs as you say they do, they wouldn't be playing the easiest Job in the game.

That argument makes literally no sense.

"I want everything to be high skill ceiling, otherwise it's not fun."
"So which one are you going to play tonight?"
"The easiest one in the game with a super low skill ceiling."

That makes zero sense.

I LOATHE this argument because it's just such a bad argument. That people want something so much, they...uh...actively avoid it if at all possible. <_<

.

Once more:

There are a LOT of "should"s in your post. But I'm not asking for shoulds.

I'm asking for WHY.

[Ggwppino]

Again: Why?

For a matter of numbers. X want to play the drg. All and x enjoy playing the drg. Y people play the drg one way, and Z people another. Y people enjoy playing the drg in a relaxed way, while Z people enjoy continuing to improve and try to get to use the drg in the most perfect way possible. they are 2 different ways of having fun but everyone has fun.
I changed class because the argument does not apply to smn, but in general.

"I want everything to be high skill ceiling, otherwise it's not fun."
"So which one are you going to play tonight?"
"The easiest one in the game with a super low skill ceiling."

the cynicism lies in the clear. I want to clear at any cost. Then I enjoy my main class at another time when I already got the equip.

[Renathras]

For a matter of numbers. X want to play the drg. All and x enjoy playing the drg. Y people play the drg one way, and Z people another. Y people enjoy playing the drg in a relaxed way, while Z people enjoy continuing to improve and try to get to use the drg in the most perfect way possible. they are 2 different ways of having fun but everyone has fun.
I changed class because the argument does not apply to smn, but in general.

So your argument is an unknown people want to play a simple way, an unknown people like to play a complex way, the simple way can't clear content so isn't viable, so only the unknown people (Z, I guess?) get to have fun and do anything meaningful in the game.

And without knowing what X, Y, or Z are...you think that's preferable? What if Z is 500 people while Y is 500,000? And those 500,000 aren't able to do any content above MSQ because they don't play the Job at any high level?

Maybe you mean Y and Z are both able to clear content...but in that case, you've run into the BLM vs SMN case where BLM is clearly able to clear content, but even you swap away from it. CLEARLY Z is either not a big number or Z wants to be Y while acting like they are not.

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There are so many unknowns in there...

Here's the thing, at the end of the day, we don't all get exactly what we want. I love GNB's aesthetic, but I dislike its mechanics. So I have a choice: Either play the Job I like the idea of but hate the mechanics the whole time, or play a different Job I may like the aesthetics of less but that I enjoy mechanically. I kinda hate WAR's aesthetic. Never been a fan of berserker type stuff. But if I'm doing some Extreme or something the first time as a Tank, I'm generally going to do it on WAR, because I enjoy the playstyle and it's good for learning encounters, and I've gotten to where I just dropped GNB because it was too much work and I wasn't enjoying playing it. (Picking up PLD now since it's not an absolute bore to play like it used to be, so that's nice. Reminds me a bit of when I first started it in ARR and had fun with it then, too.)

UNLESS the optimization produces ZERO additional damage, then there aren't cases of "most perfect way possible" and "relaxed way" existing side by side. One or the other is abandoned. Either the super perfect way is so pointless no one does it, or the relaxed way isn't viable. If they're both viable, people stop playing the super perfect way, just as players abandon BLM for SMN if SMN is viable.

I went from RDM in ShB to SMN in EW because they made RDM more technical and annoying and SMN became better and more enjoyable. /shrug