Differentiating healer identities

[ASkellington]

Play AST for a day or two.

And come now, there's roadkill with more brain activity than DPSers or Tanks, so that's not really a high bar anyway.

I main AST. It is literally no harder than any other healer in the game.

Cards? There's 0 thought to them thanks to SE's screw up starting in Shb.
Tab Targeting? It is crap in this game since it doesn't go left to right from the get go, has issues with targeting the boss anyway on tall/small characters and is only an issue because SE refuses MO support or some better party targeting for controller aka out of the player's hands.
Delayed healing? Exaltation is a press and forget. Macrocosmos is a capstone ability and therefore not applicable in ~90% of all content. And Earthly Star? Why the hells does it matter if I mess up its timing when I have no less than 4 other abilities one being on a GCD if I so incline that can easily cover it's place to where I don't need to use it outside of a DPSing tool because SE made it so my kit invalidates itself....

Like. Ever. Other. Healer.

Unless you're going to tell me that HoTs require thought when they are also a "press and forget" ability and one that every healer also has.

tl;dr - when you get good at one of these jobs you can literally switch to any of the other 3 because they don't play that much different from one another ergo the roll is easy. Or braindead I suppose the argument is.

[Renathras]

Sadly, my tolerance for passive aggressive elitism is very low. Stop parading the fallacy that the rest of us aren’t real healers and I won’t feel obligated to act… “that.” You’re perfectly CAPABLE of being humble, you just choose not to.

So is mine. That's why I've stopped giving you the time of day. You can't contain yourself even when I'm trying to have a respectful and neutral conversation with you - to the point you're stalking me on other threads replying when I made no comments directed at you. I've also yet to see you humble; you haven't admitted to a single mistake, even when caught in them. Best case scenario when you're caught is you stop posting in that thread for a while instead of admitting it.

Stop parading the fallacy that the rest of us aren’t real healers and I won’t feel obligated to act…

Show me one time I've said you "aren't real healers".

One quote where I said you aren't real healers.

I'll wait.

You constantly make up things I didn't say and accuse me of saying them. Apologies, but there's only so many times I can say to you "I didn't say that, I said THIS. Can you show me where I said that?" You: "..." Me: makes another post You: "You said it again!" Me: "Once again, no I didn't, I said THIS. Can you show me where I said that?" You: "..." ; repeat ad nausea.

There's a reason you get the same 7 people upvoting you ever time. The ones that actually engage are just as bad about it as you are, just not as blatant.

I keep trying to be the "bigger man" and have offered you SEVERAL olive branches, which you either brush away to attack me or simply outright ignore I even offered, and you're constantly butting in to try to start fights with me in random other theads - where you or one of your followers will then attack me for derailing threads when I'm the one that keeps trying to steer the thread back on topic.

I've tried ignoring you, I've tried only engaging you in threads where you're being respectful, and I even have outright asked you - on at least two occasions - what I can do different other than BOW TO YOUR POSITION UNCONDITIONALLY so we can have peaceful discourse, and you simply give no answer or attack me more.

There's no dealing with you, to the point I've considered just reporting your posts and moving on, but I don't want to be a dick about it. I'd rather you just stop being antagonistic and passive aggressive so we could actually have decent discussions - which you're fully capable of, when you don't have a bee in your britches.

tl;dr - when you get good at one of these jobs you can literally switch to any of the other 3 because they don't play that much different from one another ergo the roll is easy.

This I agree with, but so are all the others.

Played all the Tanks, feel the same way about them.

Played all the Range, the only real difference is how RNG they are.

Two out of the three Casters are about as easy as each other (and each even has a forced gap closer).

Most of the Melee follow a pretty standard paradigm that has one of two forks, the "rotation on rails" like DRK or the "low maintenance then burst" of NIN/MNK.

You could argue every Role in the game is easy and every Job in the game is braindead, I suppose.

Treated better?

Doing dps as a healer is the most thankless job in the game. You keep the party alive, contribute to raid damage and some sprout goes onto the forum to write a wall of text about filthy no-heal dps healers because they dipped below 50% when there was no raidwide for another 50 seconds and oGCD heals don't have cast bars they can see. Meanwhile the Sylphie gets showered in comms because everyone felt "so safe" while drowning in overheal.

I've seen FAR more forum posts about "no damage Healers" than "no heal Healers". And by "treated better", I mean "have easier party slots and better ques", but whatever.

[Rilifane]

AST is busy during the 2min burst but that's not the same as complexity. It's just a matter of marrying LS to the 2min burst and vomiting all your damage buffing oGCDs within 15s; the rest functions as with every other healer as Skellington says. You see HP bars move to the left, you push them back to the right with one of your oGCDs which are largely fire and forget. Earthly Galaxy doesn't need any special placement anymore since it practically covers the entire platform. CU if you need mit in addition to healing, literally anything else if you don't.
It may have higher APM than other healers but there is nothing complex about it. You don't do some complex calculations before pressing CO after a raidwide. You don't need some special timing for pressing Lady (if you drew it). You don't need to keep track of anything but its cooldown to use Horoscope. You don't even need to learn all the different burst timings for throwing cards anymore since it got streamlined.

I'd argue that AST has even less thought process behind it than SGE or SCH in endgame content, especially early tier, since they need to calculate (or trial & error) mitigation/ shields so the party can survive the unavoidable damage in the first place and whether you use Ixo or Kera makes a difference for survivability but whether you use Lady or CO doesn't.

[ForsakenRoe]

tl;dr - when you get good at one of these jobs you can literally switch to any of the other 3 because they don't play that much different from one another ergo the roll is easy. Or braindead I suppose the argument is.

After my first clear of P8S as WHM, the next week (week 4) I couldn't find a group to reclear as, since they all had a WHM already. I thought 'sod it I'll just play SGE'. No mit plan, not much practice in phase 1 on the class, I don't think I had ANY practice of P2 as it. Cleared phase 1 in one pull, cleared phase 2 in 3 pulls. Completely winged the mit plan for Dominion at the end, worked out fine. So yeh I echo the sentiment that 'role is easy'

I'd argue that AST has even less thought process behind it than SGE or SCH in endgame content

>press Star for a raidwide
>oops timed it wrong, have to detonate it early
>540p healing anyway
>WHM's Rapture is only 400, PI Rapture is 600
>what did Yoshi-P mean by this

Getting Star wrong is 'almost equal to an arenawide Cure3 potencywise'. And it's up once a min, like Horoscope, CO and CU. In fact, even if you completely botch the timings on everything possible, you could Star/Horoscope a raidwide (740p), and on the next CO/CU, for a total of 1000p over it's total duration. Big HPS coverage that handles raidwides as close together as 30s.

[ASkellington]

After my first clear of P8S as WHM, the next week (week 4) I couldn't find a group to reclear as, since they all had a WHM already. I thought 'sod it I'll just play SGE'. No mit plan, not much practice in phase 1 on the class, I don't think I had ANY practice of P2 as it. Cleared phase 1 in one pull, cleared phase 2 in 3 pulls. Completely winged the mit plan for Dominion at the end, worked out fine. So yeh I echo the sentiment that 'role is easy'

And before someone goes a head and says it: no, I don't think its ok for me to go from AST to WHM to SCH to SGE with 0 issues as an experienced healer. Why? Because it means there is nothing about any of them that is different. You could literally remove 3 of the healers from the game and you would barely be missing anything because they all play the same and thus feel the same just have different aesthetics which a class DOES NOT MAKE. Which is a design flaw.

And yes, tanks suffer this as well, but not to the degree of a healer. Tanks pretty much share all the same mitigation tools but they at least feel somewhat different in how they do damage (aside from WAR/DRK). I would PREFER if their mitigation tools were wildly different like in pvp but I guess this is passable.

All classes in reality should be like the caster role. BLM and RDM and SMN feel wildly different from one another despite them all being casters and all doing the same thing: damage. Its how they do it that makes them feel different and actually having a playstyle that healers (and tanks) lack for their primary role (healing and tanking respecitvely) and I don't understand why SE neither can fathom this nor even care.

[ty_taurus]

Show me one time I've said you "aren't real healers".

One quote where I said you aren't real healers.

I'll wait.

See:

And for reference: "enjoy playing healers" means "enjoy healing". If we enjoyed dealing damage and complex damage rotations, we'd all be playing DPSers. What YOU seem to want is to be a DPSer with some oGCD heals so you can benefit from healer ques.

The people that want more DPS buttons on healers likely fit that mold. They want more DPS buttons because they'd really rather be playing a DPS Job but are on a Healer either for ques or for a raid spot.

People that DO main healers - as in have only one Job at level 90 and it's a Healer - are likely more the casuals or "Sylphies" who don't want that.

Ignore the haters that want to insist Healers are braindead so they can play a DPS in this game...

Will three examples suffice?

I've tried many times to be cordial, but no matter what, it always ends up with you going "just accept that I'm right and we can move on." You clearly seem to think you're better and smarter than everyone else, and it's difficult to be cordial with someone who does that. Meanwhile many of the suggestions I have brought up before is specifically for other players and not myself. All I care about for my own gameplay is SGE. I want SGE to have a fun, fast-paced gameplay loop that's fun in groups as well as solo. Do that, and I'm happy. But I still want there to be a healer who's DPS contributions are disguised as support specifically so players like you can have a healer whos gameplay loop doesn't have to be directly offensive. None of the suggestions I've ever made are meant to be absolute, but rather examples to communicate how to improve job design. The only thing I've ever stated as fact is that the game has always had an environment that promotes offensive healer gameplay due to encounter design creating large break periods in damage delivered. Beyond that I've admitted my ideas were wrong many times before, like realizing the SGE barrier break resource generation can't be made DPS neutral without additional restrictions. Earlier in EW, I thought it'd be fine for Toxikon to just be 660 potency and call it a day, but that would break the healer balance as I've since been convinced of.

Additionally, your olive branches are always just "can you just accept that I'm right and we can move on?" And then proceed to describe me as a defeated, lying miscreant grasping at straws.

[Renathras]

See:

Yeah, no.

In the first, I make no mention of "real healers". I noted YOU (you specifically) because of your own statements that you prefer playing DNC and having a damage rotation with some support abilities to playing a Healer.

In the second, I make no mention of "real healers". I again note people that would rather play DPS Jobs and have a DPS Job-like rotation, but make no claims as to whether or not they're a "real" anything.

In the third, I again make no mention of "real healers".

In fact, I'm...not sure I've ever used the phrase "real healers". I also like how far you had to dig back to find those three examples. As far as I can tell, "real healers" is your term, not one I've ever used.

I've tried many times to be cordial, but no matter what, it always ends up with you going "just accept that I'm right and we can move on."

No, that's literally what you did with me.

I said to you, and I quote:

Anyways, Olive Branch time:

IF your position is that you agree with me that ARR Healers and the game mechanics, encounters, and Dev intent was not for Healers to be required to do damage, but rather they could freely choose to deal damage (or NOT to deal damage) during times that did not require it, nor involve them compromising their healing, which at the time was GCD based, and that this damage was merely a bonus when done, not a requirement and not expected or intended by the Devs (or the wider community at the time)...

...then we can drop this line of tit-for-tat and discuss what that entails, since we will agree on the position I've held this entire time...and clearly stated that was my position multiple times... (and if you've also held it this entire time, we can simply chalk this up to a..."misunderstanding".)

I literally presented you a situation of "Maybe we're both right and just misunderstanding each other?" when YOU had said this:

Oh, that explains why you're so wrong. You completely misinterpreted what I was saying since the beginning. I never said the design team balanced content around healer DPS. ARR didn't have modern enrages, and while it did feature some DPS checks, it was certainly balanced without healer DPS initially. I was talking about the general gameplay loop the design team was crafting--something where healers had the freedom to attack, and would do so at times, and this extra damage would be a bonus, not the standard. That was definitely a part of ARR design.

It's okay though, now that you know why you're wrong and you can accept that, I think we could move on to a more fair discussion, yeah?

...which was you literally restating my argument as if it was yours, claiming it was yours and that it was right, and that I was wrong - for having made the same argument - and had to "accept that" before you'd be cordial and have a fair discussion with me.

.

My olive branches are usually of the form:

"Maybe we've just had a misunderstanding and are both right and agreeing on something, we just think about it/use different words to describe it; but if we're in agreement, we have no reason to fight/argue, so let's stop and just chalk it up to a misunderstanding. How about it?"

Indeed, no where in the olive branch post above did I attack or insult you in any way - I didn't even point out you had kidnapped my own position and were holding it hostage to use as a weapon against me - I was straight up conciliatory and open to the possibility we were in agreement and only suffering from a mutual misunderstanding. Not only did you refuse to meet me half-way in a place where you're actually allowed to save face, you were trying to attack me over holding your same position, and then went into a tirade of posts insulting me and attacking me in absolute rejection to the olive branch as _I_ was attempting to bury the hatchet so we could get the thread back on topic and discuss the actual issues.

You were more interested in me being wrong than in having a discussion, or even in the fact I wasn't, as I literally held your own position (when you finally stated it as such after I asked multiple times, even though it conflicted with your prior statements, but I was more than willing to overlook that for SOME SEMBLANCE OF PEACE). That's a bad faith position.

.

When someone offers you a hand in friendship saying "Maybe we've just had a misunderstanding, we seem to agree now, let's build on that", and your response is "NOT UNTIL YOU SAY YOU WERE WRONG!!!", you, not they, are the one being passive aggressive, being elitist, thinking you're better and smarter than everyone else, and not being cordial.

When a person is saying "We seem to be saying the same thing, maybe we agree?", they're not "clearly" thinking they're "better and smarter than everyone else", since they're openly saying you and they are on the same level.

You do all the things you say I do, and you seem to have a personal crusade to get me to say I was wrong about SOMETHING - ANYthing - at this point for gods only know what reason. And you do so after I've tried every trick in the book to be fair and reach some kind of peace with you. Now you're even stalking me into other threads and harassing me to prosecute your crusade when I gave you a total no-fault, face saving way to be at peace.

.

I'll ask again (since you've derailed yet ANOTHER thread in your crusade against me):

What could I do different, other than capitulating to your will, so you would NOT be an absolute crusader?

[ASkellington]

I'll ask again (since you've derailed yet ANOTHER thread in your crusade against me):

What could I do different, other than capitulating to your will, so you would NOT be an absolute crusader?

You could have not said this comment at all:

Ignore the haters that want to insist Healers are braindead so they can play a DPS in this game but get treated better (grenade!)

If this was to be a joke/sarcasm its in poor taste. We've already gone over why we want more dps buttons. You can not like the fact we'd prefer it despite us having completely valid reasons why:

- solo msq is a horrible experience
- dps complexity would be easier to implement than a full game redesign (aka kit design vs game design)
- healer down time is going to be a thing it shouldn't be as boring as 2 buttons

But comments like these are why you have people less willing to speak with you.

[ty_taurus]

In fact, I'm...not sure I've ever used the phrase "real healers". I also like how far you had to dig back to find those three examples. As far as I can tell, "real healers" is your term, not one I've ever used.

All of the examples are inferences based on how you approach each conversation (that first example wasn't a response to something I said, by the way). If these inferences are incorrect, then it may be a good idea to reevaluate how you communicate your stances. ASkellington put it much better than I ever have. You could've not said the comment at all. Regardless, why don't we clear the air and make sure everyone is on the same page.

You are in 100% agreement that healers that want DPS buttons are just as much healers as healers who don't want to DPS, yes? No group is better than the other or more of a "real healer" than the other in terms of what they want out of the healer role?

[Renathras]

You could have not said this comment at all:

You aren't him.

And your answer is basically "Don't post disagreement with our position", which is "capitulating to your will". I asked for something I could do that wasn't that.

I mean, think about it, why did any of these need to be posted:

It was pretty good until I hit this line "Healers have some of the most confusing and complex combinations and rotations" smh

that's a blatant lie sigh
there are no combinations and nothing about any other healers is remotely complex

Arguably (though this one isn't as bad):

That's the only 1 from 5 given tips that I'd wholly disagree as well from the guide. They could've just leave it at 'Take your time to understand your class' then suddenly it'll turn into a perfect general healer guide for newbies.

The person was just posting their guide and was getting trashed by people who could have just said "I disagree a bit about something, but good guide overall. Nice work."

And yet, I was the one person defending them:

Ignore the haters, some people just want to insist Healers are braindead (the reason for this is to get them changed into being more like DPSers, because these people want to play something like a DPSer in this game); your guide is great. Thanks for sharing it! o/

.

Every time anyone posts anything about Healers that's positive, out of the woodwork come the attacks about braindead, easy, etc etc. No one ever goes "Well, you like them, good for you" or "I don't quite share your opinion, but I can see what you're thinking of and am happy you're happy". Nor do folks like you ever call out the knee-jerk "HEALERS IN FFXIV ARE BAD DESIGN AND TERRIBLE ETC ETC!!" when they're posted ad nausea.

If this was to be a joke/sarcasm its in poor taste. We've already gone over why we want more dps buttons.

Different discussions. Not EVERY discussion in the Healer Role forum needs to be "Healers are terrible, lets get more DPS buttons". It gets old REALLY fast and creates an artificial echo chamber since anyone disagreeing is either drowned out or bullied into silence or leaving.

You can not like the fact we'd prefer it despite us having completely valid reasons why:

I don't not like the fact you prefer it. My proposed solution actually is to have at least 2 and as many as 4 (if both AST stances are brought back so that there are effectively 5 total Healers) of the Healing Jobs to be given more complex DPS rotations for the people who like them while at least 1 is not for the people who do not. That's my stated preferred solution to the problem. I wouldn't suggest that if I hated all the people that want more complex DPS rotations or don't like them preferring it.

- solo msq is a horrible experience
- dps complexity would be easier to implement than a full game redesign (aka kit design vs game design)
- healer down time is going to be a thing it shouldn't be as boring as 2 buttons

1 depends on the person (I can see why some people get bored with it, but I never have), 2 is highly debatable (ARR through HW used the "full game redesign" and worked fine, and it was changed in mid HW and into SB into what we have today; clearly this isn't some impossible task. Moreover, P5-8 increased the healing complexity, so they've already been able to do it, clearly it wasn't super difficult to implement and was no more difficult than a dps complexity change/redesign), 3 highly depends on the content being run and the players, no Healer has only 2 DPS buttons (the only one with only two DPS GCDs is AST, I believe), and many people don't find it boring and doing think there's an imperative that it should be changed. The vast bulk of the Healer playerbase actually playing the game are at least content with the current design.

But comments like these are why you have people less willing to speak with you.

No, because I didn't make comments like those when I first came here (because I wasn't annoyed and jaded at dealing with all the incessant beating of the "Healers are bad design/boring/horrible" dead horse yet), and I still got attacked just as much. One of the other posters (who I don't see anymore) even reported every one of my posts and got me a week ban after harassing me in every thread and, by reporting literally every one of my posts, got exactly one for the Devs to give me a brief ban over.

I get attacked because I disagree with the majority here. It's why nothing short of me capitulating will lead to peace with some people, like Ty.