Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Rithy255]

What's harder, walking or mountain climbing. Writing a sentence or writing a paragraph? Difficulty is not subjective

What even is this argument??? If walking was "Machnist" would Climbing a mounting be Red mage for example?
It's funny didn't you say melee DPS (ALL of them) are harder then every Ranged job? despite that it's funny how so many people disagree with that take.

Difficulty is subjective, theirs bias to that subjectivity of course, like most people find Samurai easy, most people find Reaper easy, Most people find Summoner easy, that doesn't mean it's going to be strictly "easy" for everyone.

Do I need to list examples of real world things where Person A finds "X" hard, but "y" easier or Person B finds "Y" hard, but "X" easier now? are we really going to go down that level, you had to use something like "walking" just to be so disingenuous.

[Kansene]

What's harder, walking or mountain climbing. Writing a sentence or writing a paragraph? Difficulty is not subjective

I have an okay enough time doing SL1 runs in Dark Souls.
I can't get past a single level in Ori and the Blind Forest.

Did I break the rules of the universe?

[CKNovel]

What's harder, walking or mountain climbing. Writing a sentence or writing a paragraph? Difficulty is not subjective

We're back to walking and running.
Walking and Mountain climbing are way too different, you're comparing a daily movement to a skill, that's sophistry.
Writing a paragraph is writing multiple sentence. If you can do the sentence, you'll have no troubles writing a paragraph.

Sometimes it's easier to use a paragraph than a sentence.
What if I asked you to explain to me the immune system in detail, or the concept of an engine, how a computer work, what do you think would be easier? A sentence or a paragraph?
If you choose to go with a single sentence, you will have to sacrifice a lot of details at the risk of making the explanation more confusion than anything.
You can't simply say "Good cells fight bad cells" or "combustion makes things move", that would barely explain anything and leave many informations in the dark.

Here's a very simple exercice:
How do you properly raise a kid to make it a well behaved and educated man/woman?
How does a nuclear central works, from start to finish?
Can you explain to me in a single sentence the recipe of the beef wellington?
Can you explain to me the speedrun of Ocarina of time?

Try to explain that within a sentence then try with a paragraph.
You'll find yourself having a much easier time to explain a complex topic throught multiple sentence than a single one.

[SaberMaxwell]

What's harder, walking or mountain climbing. Writing a sentence or writing a paragraph? Difficulty is not subjective

Writing a thesis statement is harder than writing all of the supporting paragraphs to that thesis statement.

Writing a sentence in Mandarin is harder than writing a paragraph in English.

Climbing Camelback Mountain is easier than walking "The Maze" in Utah.

As well, define difficulty in FFXIV. In no uncertain terms I want you to provide a metric in which we can objectively measure a job's difficulty, otherwise your claim to fact of objective difficulty is a bit moot.

TLDR: Our current sorting system sucks, we need a better one for long term game health.

I more or less agree with all of this, all the way down to recategorization being possibly one of the best (if least likely, knowing SE) solutions to the problems we're facing.

[CKNovel]

Climbing Camelback Mountain is easier than walking "The Maze" in Utah.

I missed that one, that's a good one...
It's easier for a horse to walk on flat surface but harder to walk on a desert.
Camels have a easier time walking in the desert.

The same way, walking in a desert if very difficult and requires adequate skill but climbing a tree doesn't.
If we want to absolutely use a mountain, mount Fuji is said to be easy to climb and a tourist attraction.

A final example, it's easier to live in the hot country for an egyptian than in a cold place such as Alaska.
The opposite would be true for the Inuit, they developped skills to survive in the cold but not the hot desert.
Or for an experienced mountain climber, walking in the desert would be a difficult challenge to them.

Therefore, once again, difficulty is subjective.

[Aurora428]

There's a few benefits to putting BLM, SAM, and MCH into their own 4th dps role.
MCH would just need be buffed to do around the same damage level as SAM and BLM if they made a 4th dps role for the selfish dps jobs. Much easier to do than to rework MCH.
RDM and SMN could keep their raises and not be taxed dps for them as they are no longer in the same dps role as BLM
Balancing for all jobs would actually get easier as each job would only have to be balanced to other jobs in the same dps role. The party buff would just have to be great enough to require people to take one of each dps role in high end content to clear. I still think it'd be better if the damage level between all dps roles is closer than it is now.

Plus they could make new dps roles and mix and match dps types to fill these new roles allowing for more unique job identities. NIN, DNC, and the next new dps job released could be their own dps group as an example. This would mean if you like what that dps role brings to the raid but only like playing as melee dps you'd still have an option.

If a prange can be balanced with a melee then literally just do it without making up new roles.

That's literally all we need lol

The balance fix with BLM isn't to then ban it from playing with MCH and SAM, the point isn't more restrictions, it's less.

[Nutshell]

If a prange can be balanced with a melee then literally just do it without making up new roles.

That's literally all we need lol

The balance fix with BLM isn't to then ban it from playing with MCH and SAM, the point isn't more restrictions, it's less.

Well yeah of course they can just make everyone's damage the same and call it "balanced" but I personally like the idea of jobs that do more damage than others but at the cost of utility.
The paradoxical thing about my idea is that through those limitations you've mentioned we would actually see more party variety than we do now. All we have now is 2 melee, mrange, and prange for basically every party. With my idea each role could have choices in what kind of dps you'd want to play in each role. There could be parties of 3 pranged and 1 mranged and still get the party buff because those classes are from different roles.

[Aikaal]

=_= There was really a whole page about Vercure. I simply pointed out that someone said Vercure didn't matter. Is it relevant for the group and is it raid utility? No. It's main niche is the have a cast that can be used during downtime to proc dualcast. The only real time I do use Vercure while I could hit the boss was where I had tower 2 in P3 and I didn't want to greed and launch my tower to Egypt and cause a wipe.

Its niche values are very little similar to Rekindle from SMN. Rekindle can be extremely good depending on the fight timing. Rekindle can be a 2400 potency oGCD and during the first Natural Alignment it is very potent and nice to the healer when used on a target with the DoT. Should it be considered support? No. Does it matters? It does have niches so yes. Deleting Vercure would cause distress and it is deifnitely more niches in fights with a ton of downtime aka a fight like P6S and P7S, it is useless. Is Rekindle useful on the last phase of P8S? There's a ton of damage but it's all AoE. It's great and all to hit 1 target but healers are just going to AoE heal. Is Everlasting Flight useful when it is used during a tank buster and only autos are used and the tank just Bolide it? Nah.

Regarding self-personals and casters.
- Black Mage have Manaward
- Summoner have Radiant Aegis
- Red Mage have Magick Barrier

Red Mage may not have any personal but they have a raid support but I'd consider all these abilities together and since every caster has that kind of ability, it shouldn't be taxed.

- Black Mage are pure firepower
- Summoner have Searing Light
- Red Mage have Embolden

Well, it makes sense Black Mage raw power is a bit stronger since they don't have a party buff. But overall damage should be roughly similar alike the melee role synergy each melee has.

But tools you can't use at will like Everlasting Flight, Rekindle or Vercure shouldn't be taxed. If people really insist on saying it does. I'll just make the argument that Umbral Soul should be taxed since it helps the black mage keep his stacks and build Xenoglossies during downtime (btw, much much better than 1 Dualcast) while Summoners don't have anything.

Really and this is really the only thing that can be said in term of DPS difference. The only support that matters that impacts damage is this one:

- Summoner have a raise they can swift once per minute or lose a lot of DPS to hardcast.
- Red Mage have raise on demand until they are out of mana.
- Black Mage has no raise.

This is the only problem and the only support that validates Black Mage to be doing more DPS than SMN & RDM. Right now, the difference is too high. I do acknowledge a 2% to 3% is a fair tax but it's too high right now. A way to remove that tax is to put it as a role action with a CD so all casters can use it but until SE makes this change, unfortunately, the tax will remain


Take Melee DPS for example
- Monk have Riddle of Earth & Mantra
- Reaper have Arcane Crest
- Ninja have Shapeshift
- Samurai have Third Eye (This increases DPS so the more you can abuse it, the better. It's really is just a DPS gain imho but it does build ressources during downtime like High Concept)
- Dragoon has nothing

I'm not taking Second Wind, Blood Bath & Feint into consideration because those are role action for Melee. Same went for Addle and same should be said regarding Troubadour, Tactician and Samba for Ranged Physical (Why these this not a role action?)

So when you look at melee DPS... why is Monk top melee DPS? They have only received buffs since 6.0 and they have really strong support for healers if you compared to other melees. Reapers do have Arcane Crest. It was nerfed. But not Monk's support? Dragoons have nothing so how are they getting compensated?

Also, I'm not maining melee DPS so let me know if I forgot anything. It's possible.

[Aurora428]

Well yeah of course they can just make everyone's damage the same and call it "balanced" but I personally like the idea of jobs that do more damage than others but at the cost of utility.
The paradoxical thing about my idea is that through those limitations you've mentioned we would actually see more party variety than we do now. All we have now is 2 melee, mrange, and prange for basically every party. With my idea each role could have choices in what kind of dps you'd want to play in each role. There could be parties of 3 pranged and 1 mranged and still get the party buff because those classes are from different roles.

This wouldn't work without designing encounters for triple melee, which would entirely shift the paradigm for raid design.

A ranged can pretend to be a melee, but a melee can't pretend to be a ranged.

[Nutshell]

This wouldn't work without designing encounters for triple melee, which would entirely shift the paradigm for raid design.

A ranged can pretend to be a melee, but a melee can't pretend to be a ranged.

I made this suggestion on the premise that they will continue designing fights like they have for EW. Hitboxes so massive melee has the same uptime as ranged.
You are right tho for older content. Wouldn't be very fun to run old content synced with three melee dps.

I still think my original idea of removing MCH, SAM, and BLM and putting them into a fourth dps role is still a decent alternative to just making everything basically do the same damage and it wouldn't run into the 3 melee issue you bring up.