Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[FireMage]

Have we already forgot Shadowbringers where all three casters were pretty desirable? Yeah, BLM did a little more damage and was still less popular than them (it likely always will be and still is), but I don't think anyone claimed it had "no incentive to play".

Because yknow, it did more damage than them but around 5%

[FireMage]

The incentive is that it does more damage, not "similar" (even 1% is significant) and that people find it more fun and fulfilling in its job identity. That is balance

1% is not and never will be significant. Stop spouting garbage. And I have informed you what actual balance is, MULTIPLE times. At this point you're intentionally spreading misinformation

[Aikaal]

It's significant. P6S right now.



DNC vs BRD vs MCH

BRD is 1.2% over MCH.
DNC is 1.2% over BRD.
DNC is 2.5% over MCH.
#1 DPS MNK vs 11th DPS MCH is 10.7% above

It's with 1% that you accumulate a significant difference.

[Rithy255]

I agree, they should, but it doesn't need to be an exaggerated gap larger than ShB. BLM can be buffed to where it should be AND ranged (including both casters and prange) can be substantially closer to melee damage than prange have been historically.

I think the tax should still exist (at least for pranged) but should be reduced (by quite a lot) I just believe jobs like Black Mage and arguably Red Mage give up more mobility then Melee jobs, Difficulty tax is sort of hard because difficulty is pretty subjective to each and every person, so in general I rather they not balance too much in terms of "difficulty" even then no melee job is difficult enough to justify the current differences, most melees are really easy (to me).

With BLM Vs Rdm/Smn it's also somewhat a utility argument? I get raise is a pretty hard ability to balance around as if it's too useful even if BLM has a massive damage advantage unless theirs a massive needed dps check people will always want the caster with raise, if it's bad in a fight then rdm/smn being taxed for it kinda sucks, I'm not too sure though I just feel like utility does have somewhat a place in balance discussion even if it should be small, that with mobility ect. Just makes it so hard to Balance casters in general.

[FireMage]

It's significant. P6S right now.



DNC vs BRD vs MCH

BRD is 1.2% over MCH.
DNC is 1.2% over BRD.
DNC is 2.5% over MCH.
#1 DPS MNK vs 11th DPS MCH is 10.7% above

It's with 1% that you accumulate a significant difference.

1% is less than 10.7% What even are you trying at here?

[Aikaal]

1% is less than 10.7% What even are you trying at here?

"Ranged Physical are only 2.5% between each other. This is fine."

But the best melee and the worst ranged physical is 10.7%.

If the 11th DPS is 1% behind the 10th DPS and you keep that trend then it'll end up being 11%. This is extremely high. This is why it doesn't work and you'd want ideally 4% to 5% between the best and worst DPS.

1% at this stage is 100 DPS. That's significant.

Edit; This is also why someone told you 1% more DPS was a significant reason to play a job over another

[Rithy255]

As long as all jobs are close in rDPS, differences in inequality of prog vs. clear/farm are fine. It's okay if SMN and RDM are better at progging and BLM is better at clear/farming. That's not a problem that needs to be addressed, so long as you can prog on BLM and clear/farm on SMN/RDM due to similar rDPS.

Problem is when your farming DPS becomes really a less factor as everyone already likely has better gear, So at that point whats the point of even bringing black mage, like seriously, No one is going to care that black Mage does "1% more" then the other casters during a farm groups, this seriously makes no sense to me.

[Aurora428]

"Ranged Physical are only 2.5% between each other. This is fine."

But the best melee and the worst ranged physical is 10.7%.

If the 11th DPS is 1% behind the 10th DPS and you keep that trend then it'll end up being 11%. This is extremely high. This is why it doesn't work and you'd want ideally 4% to 5% between the best and worst DPS.

1% at this stage is 100 DPS. That's significant.

It's weird to me how much people cherry pick comparing based in role and out of role.

People say stuff like "RDM should do more than prange!" or "BLM should do more than melee!" and then suddenly the comparison to prange is "2.5% in role" like that's nothing

Either that 10.7% matters or it doesn't. If interrole balance doesn't matter (it most definitely does) then the position that BLM is in is perfectly fine, because it does so much damage than the other casters, and its comparison to everything else is irrelevant.

Is that the way we really want the game to be balanced? I'm going to say clearly not.

[MagiusNecros]

As far as I'm concerned ADPS > RDPS and you can't convince me otherwise. This obsession with RDPS is unhealthy.

Only thing I agree on is if you provide a good amount of RDPS your ADPS should be lower and if you have no RDPS then your ADPS should be higher.

They should just get off their high horse and make Phoenix Downs(you can only carry 1 per player at any given time so that's a balancing act in itself) usable in combat if Raise balance is such an issue.

[Aikaal]

It's weird to me how much people cherry pick comparing based in role and out of role.

People say stuff like "RDM should do more than prange!" or "BLM should do more than melee!" and then suddenly the comparison to prange is "2.5% in role" like that's nothing

Either that 10.7% matters or it doesn't. If interrole balance doesn't matter (it most definitely does) then the position that BLM is in is perfectly fine, because it does so much damage than the other casters, and its comparison to everything else is irrelevant.

Is that the way we really want the game to be balanced? I'm going to say clearly not.

But it's not because back in Stormblood, the tax favoring melee was validate due to fight designs.

Nowadays, melee DPS play like ranged physical and simply deal 10% more damage.

Comp used to be melee/caster/ranged physical/flex

Now it's double melee/caster/ranged physical, it's not even a question.

It's only going to be worst as they design more jobs. I wouldn't be surprise if they only release 1 new job. If it was a difference of 5% in ShB and now it's 10%. WHat will be 7.0? Even more jobs will be ignored. So yeah, it is important.

As far as I'm concerned ADPS > RDPS and you can't convince me otherwise. This obsession with RDPS is unhealthy.

Only thing I agree on is if you provide a good amount of RDPS your ADPS should be lower and if you have no RDPS then your ADPS should be higher.

They should just get off their high horse and make Phoenix Downs(you can only carry 1 per player at any given time so that's a balancing act in itself) usable in combat if Raise balance is such an issue.

There's not a better. Both metrics have caveats but rDPS is more accurate. It considers all buffs so a job like Machinist is not wrongly mistaken as being "ok"

Might be different on roles like Tanks because none of them have raid DPS buff but we're not talking tanks.