Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Rithy255]

And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing

Wow I actually agree with you lol.

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

Lorewise wouldn't it feel pretty weird to summon Shiva as she's a person before being a primal?

A Shiva Trance, where you become Shiva like how Reaper goes Enshroud, would make more sense lorewise, but I doubt that'll ever happen because no fun allowed in the 120 second scourge.

[Aurora428]

And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing

Have we already forgot Shadowbringers where all three casters were pretty desirable? Yeah, BLM did a little more damage and was still less popular than them (it likely always will be and still is), but I don't think anyone claimed it had "no incentive to play".

I think most casters, including BLMs who are currently getting gapped by melee themselves would rather go back to those days. Only this time, physical ranged should be brought up as well.

[Rithy255]

Have we already forgot Shadowbringers where all three casters were pretty desirable? Yeah, BLM did a little more damage and was still less popular than them (it likely always will be and still is), but I don't think anyone claimed it had "no incentive to play".

I think most casters, including BLMs who are currently getting gapped by melee themselves would rather go back to those days. Only this time, physical ranged should be brought up as well.

Problem is when you keep making that gap smaller and smaller, BLM is already not a really that is desirable in a lot of cases (Despite currently having a massive damage advantage it's the least used caster), While I agree we shouldn't have a massive difference having insensitive to play a "selfish" job like Black Mage is always going to be a tight rope to balance. Generally If your aim is to make jobs such as RDM/SMN do the same damage as BLM, you would generally need to rework both entirely in their current state and remove abilities such as raise. I think the goal is clear that you generally want a high skill (even a high risk?) job such as BLM to have enough reward to be played but also not have too much where summoner and red mage become useless.

[Mithron]

And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing

The incentive is that it does more damage, not "similar" (even 1% is significant) and that people find it more fun and fulfilling in its job identity. That is balance, as gone over MULTIPLE times. Repeating a wrong statement MULTIPLE times is still a wrong statement.

By your argument, no one would be playing any other job than melee right now. Yet we still have MCHs, RDMs, BLMs, all jobs are still being played. I myself play RDM and MCH quite often even, and PLD. People will always play any job, even if it sucks, because they find it more fun to play.

[Aikaal]

And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing

Not true. If BLM=RDM=SMN for DPS, There is no incentive to BLM because raise and support skills bring more. This is why until they remove ressurection form both SMN/RDM they will always be lower by BLM and they should by around 3%. It's not because BLM is more punishing. They are strats specifically to cater to BLM's situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ijy_gV5Upk

First dog on BLM looks punishing. Until you realize the entire party do the movement and both tank use their invulns so the BLM can full uptime. It's been like that since forever for Black Mage. This is also the second reason Black Mage is not favored in prog groups. Unless you device strats on the fly for your BLM, he'll never be at 100% unless those strats are found. He lacks raise from SMN & RDM also and he lacks the simplicity of taking the second melee spot.

In an optimized run that min-max, I'm sorry to say that your Black Mage won't be suffering from any punishment unless he makes a silly mistake which would cost anyone making that mistake or a team mate ruins him.

Black Mage should be doing the most damage on the first tier. Because party buffs scales better with gear versus jobs that are selfish like BLM, MCH & SAM.

You can never get true balance but being "more punished" isn't a good reason to say.
- If you make mistakes you will get punished. There are mistakes that cost more than others but it isn't the gravity of mistakes that make a player pick a job. If you look to optimize, you're not making mistake.
- There is a ton of incentive to play Black Mage now. They are the best DPS caster. They are not desirable in prog unless you double casters and that's an handicap.
- You can be punished by bad teammates. Example would be to raise 3 times on RDM. You didn't make a mistake but you're really behind your black & white mana and 3 GCD DPS spells. You're not having a good log. In the case of BLM would be, let's say, a tank stays on your leylines with a cleave buster and forces you out. BLM didn't do anything wrong, the tank did.

Also, you don't play Black Mage so you wouldn't know about how badly they get punished!

[Aurora428]

Problem is when you keep making that gap smaller and smaller, BLM is already not a really that is desirable in a lot of cases (Despite currently having a massive damage advantage it's the least used caster), While I agree we shouldn't have a massive difference having insensitive to play a "selfish" job like Black Mage is always going to be a tight rope to balance. Generally If your aim is to make jobs such as RDM/SMN do the same damage as BLM, you would generally need to rework both entirely in their current state and remove abilities such as raise. I think the goal is clear that you generally want a high skill (even a high risk?) job such as BLM to have enough reward to be played but also not have too much where summoner and red mage become useless.

The gap was fine in ShB. If they want to destroy SMN/RDM relative to the melee, it is unavoidable that BLM will feel its effects. If BLM were to ever do the damage it deserves (AT LEAST melee damage) RDM/SMN would be instantly dropped for the triple melee damage it offers.

Trying to do a balancing act to fix something that wasn't broken in ShB has undeniably harmed all three casters, BLM included.

[Rithy255]

The gap was fine in ShB. If they want to destroy SMN/RDM relative to the melee, it is unavoidable that BLM will feel its effects. If BLM were to ever do the damage it deserves (AT LEAST melee damage) RDM/SMN would be instantly dropped for the triple melee damage it offers.

Trying to do a balancing act to fix something that wasn't broken in ShB has undeniably harmed all three casters, BLM included.

I'd just bump up casters and phys ranged in general compared to melee, likely slightly lessen the gap between RDM/SMN. and BLM, My biggest problem right now comes with how far above melees sit, maybe they should be pretty high still? but not that high.

I think BLM simply should be the highest in general, Lets not include any percent buff bonuses (for each role) or anything if you had the choice of having a Samurai or a Black mage both at "optional level" doing the same damage you'd generally want to bring the samurai as it's more reliable and will have less restrictions to the fight

[Aurora428]

I'd just bump up casters and phys ranged in general compared to melee, likely slightly lessen the gap between RDM/SMN. and BLM, My biggest problem right now comes with how far above melees sit, maybe they should be pretty high still? but not that high.

I think BLM simply should be the highest in general, Lets not include any percent buff bonuses (for each role) or anything if you had the choice of having a Samurai or a Black mage both at "optional level" doing the same damage you'd generally want to bring the samurai as it's more reliable and will have less restrictions to the fight

I agree, they should, but it doesn't need to be an exaggerated gap larger than ShB. BLM can be buffed to where it should be AND ranged (including both casters and prange) can be substantially closer to melee damage than prange have been historically.

[Mithron]

The gap was fine in ShB. If they want to destroy SMN/RDM relative to the melee, it is unavoidable that BLM will feel its effects. If BLM were to ever do the damage it deserves (AT LEAST melee damage) RDM/SMN would be instantly dropped for the triple melee damage it offers.

Trying to do a balancing act to fix something that wasn't broken in ShB has undeniably harmed all three casters, BLM included.

As long as all jobs are close in rDPS, differences in inequality of prog vs. clear/farm are fine. It's okay if SMN and RDM are better at progging and BLM is better at clear/farming. That's not a problem that needs to be addressed, so long as you can prog on BLM and clear/farm on SMN/RDM due to similar rDPS.