The Devs need a much needed thanks!

[Kes13a]

I never disagreed with you about them needing a sign-off from higher-ups. Everything in business does because you need to fund it.

So I don't know why you are taking this tone. I never said the developers didn't have time. I assume they have community managers who read the forms and Q&A to give feedback, so there is no excuse. We all know they know the issues with the game. Everyone asks how long it will take them to fix, and it is within a reasonable timescale for the people paying for the service.

You have also just admitted you have no idea what you are talking about in this situation, nor can we qualify if you are even telling the truth. You are arguing from authority without being able to prove you are an authority, so it's redundant in this situation. You could easily be a 19 yr old in a university dorm studying game development and arguing with people.

okay so, a bit of history then.

I work as end user support for a software company, because I am customer facing I get the dubious honour of attending Development meetings in case I am aware of issues with the software that require fixing. I said that I have no idea how SE structures their development, I never said I have no idea on how things are likely done. in my case, the product manager, directs the "sprints" in order to achieve release dates with the things that he has decided to implement. in amongst that are bug fixes as well as possible reworking of features that may not be working as customer want. in a LOT of cases.... suggestions end up on a back log because they would either take up too much time to code to work with 9 year old code, or they are considered not worth the time or they are just ridiculous. the devs has very little input aside from how long they GUESS fixing or implementation would take. in 12 years of doing this, I have never heard any dev say "we should implement this...". that usually comes from the product manager or from the sales department, the devs just try and keep up and deliver their part of the code within the schedule in time for releases. do I speak with some authority on the subject in terms of how it likely works, yes, I believe I do. I am not 19 studying game development, couldnt pay me enough to code personally.


do I think the devs deserve some thanks for now having a bug infested game that you can log into daily? I do. they do a job, deal with hundreds of thousands of lines of code that not many would ever want to, or could do

do I think that the aim for those complaining should be higher up the chain, you bet. there is a disconnect between the players and yoshi on what is needed for long standing fixes and whats important to the community. not saying its yoshi, but the devs are essentially just grunts. as is often pointed out.. SE is not an indie company, so somewhere between the devs and the yoshi is where the real issue lays. not the lowest of the low who just take direction

and I am sorry about taking a tone with you, but accusing the devs of waiting is misdirected, and why I felt I had to comment like that. willing to bet the devs never look at the forums, especially the english ones. I am sure they would love to fix all the issues if they could.. and they were told to or allowed to do so. I am sure they take as much pride in their work, and their abilities, as most people.

[Striker44]

Yeah except this thread is not praising the devs, it’s farming an even more useless set of internet points than reddit karma on the back of the drama caused by poor balancing that the devs themselves caused

I’ll praise the devs when they actually do something worth praising for a change which I haven’t seen much of since 4.x

Well, there's the usual sad group of permanently negative trolls who can't stand the thought of people actually being happy, but in general it's nice to see that even in this cesspool of negativity, the game is so popular that positive posts still appear. Personally, I've loved my time in FFXIV, and both ShB and EW hit it out of the park for me. The devs deserve all the praise I can give them. But hey, people love to point out how that 600-something page thread "must" mean people hate the game, even though a large swath of it is people disagreeing with the OP and celebrating this xpac, so why shouldn't the same logic apply to the ever-increasing length of this thread and its continued presence on the front page, eh?

[Midareyukki]

Well, there's the usual sad group of permanently negative trolls who can't stand the thought of people actually being happy, but in general it's nice to see that even in this cesspool of negativity, the game is so popular that positive posts still appear. Personally, I've loved my time in FFXIV, and both ShB and EW hit it out of the park for me. The devs deserve all the praise I can give them. But hey, people love to point out how that 600-something page thread "must" mean people hate the game, even though a large swath of it is people disagreeing with the OP and celebrating this xpac, so why shouldn't the same logic apply to the ever-increasing length of this thread and its continued presence on the front page, eh?

Bait.

You know darn well that isn't what's being touted around, get over yourself. The thread's already made it clear: people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more. And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way. You like the game? Great. You want to praise the development team? Great, a lot of people do online already! What, you think the forums are too negative and would like to change it? Well good for you, I made a thread just for that, how about that, go out there and contribute! But don't be pedantic by calling everyone who said anything as "omg too negative, haters waah". And I bet, if anyone answers you, the only thing you'll say is "see? You're against what I say, you must be a hater!". Except, no. You're being called out on literally being on the polar opposite of what you claim to dislike about this thread. You aren't being any different.

Just let the thread die otherwise if you don't care. This thread only has drama bait, there's no need for you to do the same. If you really want to put actions to your words, say something nice in the proper platforms.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Bait.

You know darn well that isn't what's being touted around, get over yourself. The thread's already made it clear: people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more. And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way. You like the game? Great. You want to praise the development team? Great, a lot of people do online already! What, you think the forums are too negative and would like to change it? Well good for you, I made a thread just for that, how about that, go out there and contribute! But don't be pedantic by calling everyone who said anything as "omg too negative, haters waah". And I bet, if anyone answers you, the only thing you'll say is "see? You're against what I say, you must be a hater!". Except, no. You're being called out on literally being on the polar opposite of what you claim to dislike about this thread. You aren't being any different.

But arent the devs already constantly apologizing for their mess ups? Who'se saying that they're arent? Are they just blind or havent actually paid attention to the communication the team has been giving us? We had two quick posts within the same patch cycle twice about the savage and job balancing back to back. Its just unfortunately stuff that for a good portion of players didnt want to hear or feel like its still not enough so they're being angry about it.

Currently we're getting a live letter in the upcoming week where they'll be talking and reviewing a lot of the feedback from 6.2 and onward. My issue is the huge amounts of disingenuous people among the community and honestly its sometimes kinda hard to ignore when they're doing a swell job of being the loudest group within the pile of feedback the forums has.

[Silverbane]

Bait.

Entry No. 1 in the hater playbook: everything you disagree with is bait posted by a troll.

You know darn well ...

Entry No. 2: trans-Internet mind reading, knowing what the person you disagree with really thinks.

people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more.

Entry No. 3: grand generalizations about "people," because what you alone want isn't rhetorically powerful enough.

And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way.

Entry No. 4: denouncing labeling of people when people you disagree with do it (e.g., "haters"), but being just fine with it when it's applied to those people you disagree with (e.g., "simps," "shills," "boot-lickers," "perfect consumer," and so on.)

Just let the thread die otherwise if you don't care. This thread only has drama bait,

Entry No. 5: telling people to give you the last word on the subject.

Later, regarding their post:

Oh it isn't in good faith.

That's an admission of intentional trolling by Midareyukki, there, folks.
Not that it wasn't obvious.

[Atelier-Bagur]

For the record I'm advocating for the people whom had gave out their well thought out responses to many of the games problems.

Now I normally don't care about savage raid job balancing or people saying that classes are too simple or homogenized or the 2 second burst windows being iffy, but from reading posts and explanations online about issues presented from various people I can see how it IS a big deal for a lot of people and it's something that I want the team to do better.

Same thing with IS, currently it has a "base" for the content, it's not something that has a lot of meat and bones to it so I'm not surprised to see people disappointed by it. It's warranted but also again people being disingenuous saying that SE just wasted their time with this content when its just the start of something that I hell HOPE expands to something greater in future patches. The devs have stated that they intend to expand upon it in the roadmap yet people selectively ignore that communication and just resort to whining about it and it's aggravating to hear to say the least.

[Kaurhz]

Bait.

You know darn well that isn't what's being touted around, get over yourself. The thread's already made it clear: people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more. And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way. You like the game? Great. You want to praise the development team? Great, a lot of people do online already! What, you think the forums are too negative and would like to change it? Well good for you, I made a thread just for that, how about that, go out there and contribute! But don't be pedantic by calling everyone who said anything as "omg too negative, haters waah". And I bet, if anyone answers you, the only thing you'll say is "see? You're against what I say, you must be a hater!". Except, no. You're being called out on literally being on the polar opposite of what you claim to dislike about this thread. You aren't being any different.

Just let the thread die otherwise if you don't care. This thread only has drama bait, there's no need for you to do the same. If you really want to put actions to your words, say something nice in the proper platforms.

I don't really think this comment is made in good faith considering both sides are equally as guilty for needlessly labeling as a thinly veiled attempt at trying to denounce a point. Sorry, but people reap what they sow.

If people come into a thread being positive or disagreeing to only be labeled as either a; white knight, shill, simp, bootlicker. Then the expectancy to be called a hater, etc., isn't really a far stretch away from a reasonable response. Why should people feel the need of having that courtesy extended to them when many feel so disinclined to provide that courtesy in the first place? But alas this brings on the main problem with the forums in that any type of feedback whether positive or negative must be seen as universally accepted and homogenous across the broader community. There's some form of immunity to the acceptance that a thread will always have a counter-response to it.

Not that you yourself are guilty of, but seemingly the 'people' you elect apply this to are just as equally guilty.

[Midareyukki]

But arent the devs already constantly apologizing for their mess ups? Who'se saying that they're arent? Are they just blind or havent actually paid attention to the communication the team has been giving us? We had two quick posts within the same patch cycle twice about the savage and job balancing back to back. Its just unfortunately stuff that for a good portion of players didnt want to hear or feel like its still not enough so they're being angry about it.

...okay and?

They apologize for their "mistakes". Sure. And what about the actions they take after their apology? I'm not talking about the times Yoshida said "We apologize for what happened". I'm talking about what they did after. Not everything ended up fine, some stuff are still only band-aided. Besides, as good as the devs are, it doesn't exempt them from being called out on those aspects. Otherwise they wouldn't apologize at all. Maybe you wouldn't have those posts back to back if the dev team had listened to its playerbase. Rather than telling healers to "go play Ultimate".

I mean, Atelier, I told you not even a day ago: It doesn't matter if "other companies" do it worse, if there are stuff that are needed to be pointed out for there to be any improvement, even if we're doing better than others, why wouldn't we? It doesn't exempt them from criticism. What it does is earn them respect and consideration, but it also needs to be reciprocal. If they don't award their fans with respect, why would anyone give them in turn? And some stuff haven't been apologized for in a proper and responsible way. That had nothing to do with "whiners", you really need to let that argument go. Because it always seems that's your only answer to things, when you know by now that the way people end up is either that they learn to respect the devs, or people just turn against them on the spot. It had to do with the way they approached the subject, and then the subsequent reaction. Even if they're better than other devs, they can still trip up, right? Even monkeys fall from trees. And they can take it when we say "yo, you tripped here", right? To me, that's not being disrespectful, that's doing what the devs asked for: they wanted fans to give feedback, even if it meant it was negative. So that the game improves. Or, what, should we only give them positive feedback from here on and never address problems that arise?

I never said "we wanted an apology". I said we wanted them to own the stuff that didn't work that well, and actively improve them. "I'm sorry" rings hollow when the action you take is weak. YES there are reasons, but there are also reasons for people to question the weight of the measures taken. Plus, just because you're tired of all the negativity, you shouldn't deny that some things have been addressed rather weakly and could be better addressed in the future. And again, I wasn't even talking about the whiners, because odds are Square won't care for them. We all know those guys are the worst part. I'm talking about people who aren't going to that extreme and are still called haters for doing so.

Anyway. Yeah, they're going to have a Live Letter soon, and they will be parsing the threads for feedback, but this thread doesn't have any. If anything, the only thing that can be construed from this is that some fans want them to be more transparent. But that's beyond Yoshida's abilities, and if the upper guys don't want that, we won't have any, period. Everything else can be dismissed.

[Midareyukki]

I don't really think this comment is made in good faith considering both sides are equally as guilty for needlessly labeling as a thinly veiled attempt at trying to denounce a point. Sorry, but people reap what they sow.

If people come into a thread being positive or disagreeing to only be labeled as either a; white knight, shill, simp, bootlicker. Then the expectancy to be called a hater, etc., isn't really a far stretch away from a reasonable response. Why should people feel the need of having that courtesy extended to them when many feel so disinclined to provide that courtesy in the first place? But alas this brings on the main problem with the forums in that any type of feedback whether positive or negative must be seen as universally accepted and homogenous across the broader community. There's some form of immunity to the acceptance that a thread will always have a counter-response to it.

Not that you yourself are guilty of, but seemingly the 'people' you elect apply this to are just as equally guilty.

Oh it isn't in good faith. I'm just tired of people walking in and the first thing they say is "Everyone is too negative" and completely ignore all the stuff and consensus that have reached after discussions were had. Personally it's even worse because one thing constantly spouted to shut up Hrothgar and Viera talks on their own threads is "god you guys are so whiny, you demand too much without ever considering the devs". When in reality, no, by this point we've had so many talks that we now understand that the issue is far more nuanced and "just asking" the devs won't guarantee anything. The devs aren't machines, they have rules, and they have people who tell them what they should or shouldn't do. Some stuff is beyond their reach, and we get it. And as I told Atelier, while we understand that, it doesn't mean that any further complaint is inherently fueled by hate. But rather to point that "well, obviously, such limitations aren't working and your fanbase wants more". Whether it passes or not isn't within our reach. If it were, we wouldn't even be saying anything, we'd just up and change it ourselves... but we can't. So best we have is point to issues and HOPE Square can solve them.

As for the white knight, shill and all that, I totally agree with you, Kaurhz. So many people come in and actively want to praise people and want the devs to be given the recognition they deserve. You want to know the answer I keep seeing? "Well they get recognition in the money I give them with subs". And hell, you CAN accuse me of that, I very likely said that a few weeks ago. But then I thought better and now I can say: that's a really stupid answer. Because that money doesn't go to them, active numbers aren't the best indicator out there. Words and appreciation are. Feedback of stuff you want to see them keep in the game. WoW has revenue, WoW has numbers... but does it have feedback over what people actually want to keep in their own forums?

As for me "electing" people... no, I'm saying that the overall sentiment from people who aren't on diametrically opposite extremes (hating the devs vs only defending the devs) is specifically "We want the flaws to be owned up and tackled". All the rest gets called out. Both the white knights and the unfair haters. And reducing the community to only those two aspects ends up ignoring the proper part that some people reach. And by ignoring that, you end up ignoring the part where people realize "Ok yeah, stuff isn't that simple". And when topics around certain stuff arise, the answer you get are people calling them "whiners" and accusing people who talk about such subjects of "always being negative".

And the more posts we have like that of "Ugh, well I, for one, LOVED this game, y'all are just haters who deserve no opinion~!" are just here to stir the flames for absolutely no reason. It doesn't indicate anything about the people other than the poster itself. Hence why I say "bait, get over yourself".

[Midareyukki]

Dissection

And what do you want? If anything you're nothing but a hater on me. Literally every time you show up it's to trash talk me, like a really bad stalker.

Ad hominem much, Silver?