The Devs need a much needed thanks!

[Kaurhz]

Bait.

You know darn well that isn't what's being touted around, get over yourself. The thread's already made it clear: people like the devs, they just want some faults being owned and tackled, nothing more. And constantly denouncing people who point those out as "haters" won't help the game in any way. You like the game? Great. You want to praise the development team? Great, a lot of people do online already! What, you think the forums are too negative and would like to change it? Well good for you, I made a thread just for that, how about that, go out there and contribute! But don't be pedantic by calling everyone who said anything as "omg too negative, haters waah". And I bet, if anyone answers you, the only thing you'll say is "see? You're against what I say, you must be a hater!". Except, no. You're being called out on literally being on the polar opposite of what you claim to dislike about this thread. You aren't being any different.

Just let the thread die otherwise if you don't care. This thread only has drama bait, there's no need for you to do the same. If you really want to put actions to your words, say something nice in the proper platforms.

I don't really think this comment is made in good faith considering both sides are equally as guilty for needlessly labeling as a thinly veiled attempt at trying to denounce a point. Sorry, but people reap what they sow.

If people come into a thread being positive or disagreeing to only be labeled as either a; white knight, shill, simp, bootlicker. Then the expectancy to be called a hater, etc., isn't really a far stretch away from a reasonable response. Why should people feel the need of having that courtesy extended to them when many feel so disinclined to provide that courtesy in the first place? But alas this brings on the main problem with the forums in that any type of feedback whether positive or negative must be seen as universally accepted and homogenous across the broader community. There's some form of immunity to the acceptance that a thread will always have a counter-response to it.

Not that you yourself are guilty of, but seemingly the 'people' you elect apply this to are just as equally guilty.

[Midareyukki]

I don't really think this comment is made in good faith considering both sides are equally as guilty for needlessly labeling as a thinly veiled attempt at trying to denounce a point. Sorry, but people reap what they sow.

If people come into a thread being positive or disagreeing to only be labeled as either a; white knight, shill, simp, bootlicker. Then the expectancy to be called a hater, etc., isn't really a far stretch away from a reasonable response. Why should people feel the need of having that courtesy extended to them when many feel so disinclined to provide that courtesy in the first place? But alas this brings on the main problem with the forums in that any type of feedback whether positive or negative must be seen as universally accepted and homogenous across the broader community. There's some form of immunity to the acceptance that a thread will always have a counter-response to it.

Not that you yourself are guilty of, but seemingly the 'people' you elect apply this to are just as equally guilty.

Oh it isn't in good faith. I'm just tired of people walking in and the first thing they say is "Everyone is too negative" and completely ignore all the stuff and consensus that have reached after discussions were had. Personally it's even worse because one thing constantly spouted to shut up Hrothgar and Viera talks on their own threads is "god you guys are so whiny, you demand too much without ever considering the devs". When in reality, no, by this point we've had so many talks that we now understand that the issue is far more nuanced and "just asking" the devs won't guarantee anything. The devs aren't machines, they have rules, and they have people who tell them what they should or shouldn't do. Some stuff is beyond their reach, and we get it. And as I told Atelier, while we understand that, it doesn't mean that any further complaint is inherently fueled by hate. But rather to point that "well, obviously, such limitations aren't working and your fanbase wants more". Whether it passes or not isn't within our reach. If it were, we wouldn't even be saying anything, we'd just up and change it ourselves... but we can't. So best we have is point to issues and HOPE Square can solve them.

As for the white knight, shill and all that, I totally agree with you, Kaurhz. So many people come in and actively want to praise people and want the devs to be given the recognition they deserve. You want to know the answer I keep seeing? "Well they get recognition in the money I give them with subs". And hell, you CAN accuse me of that, I very likely said that a few weeks ago. But then I thought better and now I can say: that's a really stupid answer. Because that money doesn't go to them, active numbers aren't the best indicator out there. Words and appreciation are. Feedback of stuff you want to see them keep in the game. WoW has revenue, WoW has numbers... but does it have feedback over what people actually want to keep in their own forums?

As for me "electing" people... no, I'm saying that the overall sentiment from people who aren't on diametrically opposite extremes (hating the devs vs only defending the devs) is specifically "We want the flaws to be owned up and tackled". All the rest gets called out. Both the white knights and the unfair haters. And reducing the community to only those two aspects ends up ignoring the proper part that some people reach. And by ignoring that, you end up ignoring the part where people realize "Ok yeah, stuff isn't that simple". And when topics around certain stuff arise, the answer you get are people calling them "whiners" and accusing people who talk about such subjects of "always being negative".

And the more posts we have like that of "Ugh, well I, for one, LOVED this game, y'all are just haters who deserve no opinion~!" are just here to stir the flames for absolutely no reason. It doesn't indicate anything about the people other than the poster itself. Hence why I say "bait, get over yourself".

[Kaurhz]

Snip.

Sure, that being said, this is the whole point. That because - "I made x comment, therefore, I am y", and just using your own example, because someone pushes the agenda that they believe the game is in a good state, or that they disagree with points being made does not inherently mean that they have no criticisms of their own, or equally that they are immune from people giving feedback on the game. This pretty much applies universally. But I think you've already done a fair good job of acknowledging this beforehand in your second paragraph. But equally, are per, these are just chopping at 2 extremes.

The problem with using money as an indicator for a tokenism of appreciation or expression of gratitude is that money is only used in the exchange of goods, and not necessarily as a token of gratitude. To suggest otherwise is a thinly-veiled attempt at trying to shut down forms of gratitude. Money is realistically only giving you the right to consume the game, nothing else - Those 'profits' aren't necessarily going exclusively to the people who develop the content, but rather just allow for an effective business model. But once again, you've highlighted this.