Are positionals a outdated thing?

[Supersnow845]

Again I’ll say if you can easily hit every positional without trying on a boss who’s hit box is half the arena wide what is the justification for melee doing so much more damage than the other DPS jobs

Melee damage is designed around disengagement and the occasional missed positional but then square basically designs it so that you never actually have to deal with that problem except in the most recent 2 EX’s (which still hit the casters harder)

If we are going to continue going down this road then melees either need to be nerfed or other DPS buffed, MNK does a whopping 1200 rDPS more than RDM on P8S, that is far too much variance for a job that doesn’t even have to try for uptime

[Kazhar]

If we are going to continue going down this road then melees either need to be nerfed or other DPS buffed, MNK does a whopping 1200 rDPS more than RDM on P8S, that is far too much variance for a job that doesn’t even have to try for uptime

I would be careful about using week 1 data since most teams who cleared funneled all their loot into their top DPS (especially the ilvl 630 weapon), which increases the gap between the top and the bottom by a substantial amount.

[Supersnow845]

I would be careful about using week 1 data since most teams who cleared funneled all their loot into their top DPS (especially the ilvl 630 weapon), which increases the gap between the top and the bottom by a substantial amount.

That’s true but even accounting for that melee do 10% more damage for what amounts to a disadvantage to melee that doesn’t really functionally exist

[AlyaNimfa]

Imagine if Monk and Red Mage were comparable.

Monk is great for uptime yes. It's also much more complex than Red Mage and should do more dps, so it's a bad example. Also the insta rez that RDM has, lands it into a sorta half support half dps role, so I guess devs decided they'd give it the games support dps, instead of a pure dps rank. I think the better example would be to compare monk to a BLM, but we don't wanna do that because the disparity isn't as great.

[Supersnow845]

Imagine if Monk and Red Mage were comparable.

Monk is great for uptime yes. It's also much more complex than Red Mage and should do more dps, so it's a bad example. Also the insta rez that RDM has, lands it into a sorta half support half dps role, so I guess devs decided they'd give it the games support dps, instead of a pure dps rank. I think the better example would be to compare monk to a BLM, but we don't wanna do that because the disparity isn't as great.

Okay let’s compare MNK to BLM, MNK is 500 rDPS ahead of BLM right now, MNK would probably be slightly preferred over BLM for gear funnelling in week one but not even close to the level of MNK to RDM, BLM is more complex than MNK especially in prog and MNK has more utility than BLM (this is to say nothing of EX 3 and 4 which punish the casters far more than the melees)

So your most complex caster (probably most complex class) loses out by a pretty significant margin to MNK, SAM and NIN, loses slightly to DRG and just beats RPR. This is to say nothing of the fact that the rezz tax becomes totally redundant in reclears and is only useful in general prog, outside of that RDM doesn’t have that much utility (magic barrier is the big one) plus you have the physical range, sure they are simpler than melee but they are also massively taxed for their mobility which is hardly a problem in modern content. All balance decisions point to melee designed to be taxed for needing to be in melee range but they aren’t being taxed so we just accept they do more damage

[RyuDragnier]

Okay let’s compare MNK to BLM, MNK is 500 rDPS ahead of BLM right now, MNK would probably be slightly preferred over BLM for gear funnelling in week one but not even close to the level of MNK to RDM, BLM is more complex than MNK especially in prog and MNK has more utility than BLM (this is to say nothing of EX 3 and 4 which punish the casters far more than the melees)

So your most complex caster (probably most complex class) loses out by a pretty significant margin to MNK, SAM and NIN, loses slightly to DRG and just beats RPR. This is to say nothing of the fact that the rezz tax becomes totally redundant in reclears and is only useful in general prog, outside of that RDM doesn’t have that much utility (magic barrier is the big one) plus you have the physical range, sure they are simpler than melee but they are also massively taxed for their mobility which is hardly a problem in modern content. All balance decisions point to melee designed to be taxed for needing to be in melee range but they aren’t being taxed so we just accept they do more damage

MNK can do more damage yes, but it has a very high skill ceiling due to having a constant 2s GCD instead of 2.5s. It is common to lose damage due to missing a positional and knowing when to greed and when to disengage. MNK can easily get killed for this reason and lose damage massively, or disengage too early and lose a hit or two while BLM is still casting. Due to the recent changes in MNK as well, you have to go through some rather fast and on the fly adjustments for your various Perfect Balance uses. Between the two, MNK is far more complicated, so it's understandable why it can do more damage, it's a lot harder for MNK to do that level of damage due to the multitude of issues it can have.

[Supersnow845]

MNK can do more damage yes, but it has a very high skill ceiling due to having a constant 2s GCD instead of 2.5s. It is common to lose damage due to missing a positional and knowing when to greed and when to disengage. MNK can easily get killed for this reason and lose damage massively, or disengage too early and lose a hit or two while BLM is still casting. Due to the recent changes in MNK as well, you have to go through some rather fast and on the fly adjustments for your various Perfect Balance uses. Between the two, MNK is far more complicated, so it's understandable why it can do more damage, it's a lot harder for MNK to do that level of damage due to the multitude of issues it can have.

Okay then let’s go with NIN or SAM, SAM lost Kaiten and a lot of its janky loop filler rotation is gone because of it and NIN is basically 123 outside of the trick window, they also do almost as much damage as MNK and also destroy BLM (to say nothing of the 5 ranged classes which are barely even in the equation anymore)

That presents 2 questions, if MNK is so gigabrain why do these two melee do almost the exact same damage, and still my original point remains why do they all do so much more damage than the ranged classes, you can’t tell me 6.2 SAM is more complex than BLM

[RyuDragnier]

Melee has to hit all positionals perfectly, avoid getting hit by the melee range AoEs that will likely kill them. SAM has no utility whatsoever, NIN's opener and burst can be as complicated as MNK (if not more so). BLM's major weakness, standing still, has been nerfed through mobility skills to the point where it's no longer a concern for them. 2 Charges of Triple Cast = 6 instant spells, Swiftcast = 1 instant spell, Thundercloud/Firestarter procs = 2 instant casts, Foul/Xenoglossy is instant, Aetherial Manipulation is on 10s...BLM doesn't really have the crutch they once had.

[Supersnow845]

Melee has to hit all positionals perfectly, avoid getting hit by the melee range AoEs that will likely kill them. SAM has no utility whatsoever, NIN's opener and burst can be as complicated as MNK (if not more so). BLM's major weakness, standing still, has been nerfed through mobility skills to the point where it's no longer a concern for them. 2 Charges of Triple Cast = 6 instant spells, Swiftcast = 1 instant spell, Thundercloud/Firestarter procs = 2 instant casts, Foul/Xenoglossy is instant, Aetherial Manipulation is on 10s...BLM doesn't really have the crutch they once had.

Okay so because you seem intent on ignoring my questions and going “but melee’s are hard” despite the fact that BLM specifically has the greatest Variety in DPS outside of the healers between 0 and 100 parse range indicating it’s complexity. I’ll ask from your perspective do you believe that melee have enough complexity to justify the gap between them and the ranged classes (including or excluding BLM) and if so what becomes the justification for bringing the 5 taxed classes beyond the 1% bonus. Seriously are we going to hold up 50% of our DPS classes with the 1% bonus and basically exclude SMN and RDM because BLM gets the caster 1%

[RyuDragnier]

Okay so because you seem intent on ignoring my questions and going “but melee’s are hard” despite the fact that BLM specifically has the greatest Variety in DPS outside of the healers between 0 and 100 parse range indicating it’s complexity. I’ll ask from your perspective do you believe that melee have enough complexity to justify the gap between them and the ranged classes (including or excluding BLM) and if so what becomes the justification for bringing the 5 taxed classes beyond the 1% bonus. Seriously are we going to hold up 50% of our DPS classes with the 1% bonus and basically exclude SMN and RDM because BLM gets the caster 1%

Yes, melee do have enough complexity to justify the gap. Play a melee in the new tier of Savage, or in the EXs. You'll notice pretty quickly how much more work you're going to put into doing good damage on them.