Adding attack-or-take-damage/die mechanics to end-game dungeons

[Striker44]

But if someone is interested purely in the gameplay and fight mechanic he has to watch the 750+ quests of MSQ or pay to skip them up to endwalker, Just sounds like a weird double standard to me. I get it appeals to casuals who are the biggest part of the player base, but MMO and Final Fantasy in general appeal to people who love to do fights and sometimes grind, the last 3 main games (Minus XIV) gameplay loop is still about fighting monsters tons like you would expect from a JRPG.

What I'm trying to say is that you can blame MMO players to ask for harder normal content, that are rampant in the genre, when they play a game marketed as ''The best MMORPG on the market''

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG). There are other games that heavily emphasize endgame raiding and see the story as just something to blow through as a means to get you to endgame. FFXIV isn't that game. It would be like playing an FPS set in WWI and being disappointed that it doesn't include modern tanks and jets.

Remember, when WoW was far and away the "best MMORPG on the market," it attained that status precisely by being more casual-oriented than other MMO's at the time. And end-game raiding at that time was practically nothing more than tank-and-spank with occasionally one other mechanic at most involved. The "hardest" part of combat was actually just managing to get 40 people together to do a raid.

There's also a direct link between WoW shifting to a "raid or die" mentality focusing on ever-more-difficult combat and eSports, and it's loss of that "best MMO" status. Put quite simply, the unofficial "best MMO of the moment" title has a long history of going to the game that is most casual-friendly and doesn't focus on "harder" normal content.

[Magikazam]

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG). There are other games that heavily emphasize endgame raiding and see the story as just something to blow through as a means to get you to endgame. FFXIV isn't that game. It would be like playing an FPS set in WWI and being disappointed that it doesn't include modern tanks and jets.

Remember, when WoW was far and away the "best MMORPG on the market," it attained that status precisely by being more casual-oriented than other MMO's at the time. And end-game raiding at that time was practically nothing more than tank-and-spank with occasionally one other mechanic at most involved. The "hardest" part of combat was actually just managing to get 40 people together to do a raid.

There's also a direct link between WoW shifting to a "raid or die" mentality focusing on ever-more-difficult combat and eSports, and it's loss of that "best MMO" status. Put quite simply, the unofficial "best MMO of the moment" title has a long history of going to the game that is most casual-friendly and doesn't focus on "harder" normal content.

It is a double standard, game is called a MMORPG, genre is known for having things like grind and gameplay-centered fights since the genre is a thing, Sure the newest best MMO will casualize the genre like WoW and Everquest did back then, but they kept the important gameplay loop of the genre, and that IMO is where I draw the line. What the next step? next MMORPG casualization step? if you wipe 3 times in extreme the boss commit senpuku so the casual player can get some shiny mount?

Also WoW did not die cause it was raid-focused and ''anti-casual'' FR not just show you never step in a wow raid in LFG difficulty ever. Nah the issue was bad dev management stockpiling since the last 5-7 years or so and just ignoring the player base interest in general, that and locking MSQ content behind time-gated content. to put it in FFXIV way, it wouldn't be bad to being forced to do pandemonium on normal difficulty once in the story, but it would be if they made it so you need full gears set of that place + good materia to even accept the next quest.

[TaleraRistain]

Sure the newest best MMO will casualize the genre like WoW and Everquest did back then

Wait. What. You think EverQuest was casual? You think spending an entire night traveling across zones and taking boats just to get to the place you wanted to camp in the next night was casual? You think there being nothing to do past the newbie yard in that game but raid for 12+ hours with 71 other people was casual? Or was it spending hours shouting for groups because of the miniscule number of camp spots in given zones casual? And then being expected to find your replacement when you had to leave so you weren't the one that caused the group to die.

I think you mean EverQuest II and even that was more casual (you could actually solo by design there) than EverQuest but still nothing near where World of Warcraft was when it came out.

And none of those games really gave a fig about a story. There was good lore, but the games didn't showcase it or have any sort of connecting arc. That was fine for its time, but the MMO genre has changed and these more story-focused games are experiencing a lot of popularity. Also easily accessible games that let people engage with them to the level they desire. SE needs to make decisions that are going to keep them successful in this ever-changing genre and so far it seems that they're succeeding. I read something recently that mentioned SE has made comments that things like Duty Support have indeed brought in people who were intimidated by the fact that XIV is an MMO. And they're not closing other avenues off entirely. They're trying to maintain a healthy balance so the more casual content is accessible, and the optional content is where to find the challenge.

[vetch]

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG).

Terrible reasoning because both RPGs and MMOs have detailed battle systems for players to learn and enjoy even when they're trying to tell grandiose stories. It doesn't matter what order you put the acronym in.

[Supersnow845]

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG). There are other games that heavily emphasize endgame raiding and see the story as just something to blow through as a means to get you to endgame. FFXIV isn't that game. It would be like playing an FPS set in WWI and being disappointed that it doesn't include modern tanks and jets.

Remember, when WoW was far and away the "best MMORPG on the market," it attained that status precisely by being more casual-oriented than other MMO's at the time. And end-game raiding at that time was practically nothing more than tank-and-spank with occasionally one other mechanic at most involved. The "hardest" part of combat was actually just managing to get 40 people together to do a raid.

There's also a direct link between WoW shifting to a "raid or die" mentality focusing on ever-more-difficult combat and eSports, and it's loss of that "best MMO" status. Put quite simply, the unofficial "best MMO of the moment" title has a long history of going to the game that is most casual-friendly and doesn't focus on "harder" normal content.

WOW is still the largest MMO, we are close but WOW still holds it, and WOW maintains that title partially because they balance their casual and endgame content and have a decent difficulty levelling curve

14 just jumps from “cure 1 spam is fine to 99% of your GCD’s must be glare or we will enrage” with absolutely no middle ground and it’s a big part of why we have such poor capped population retention

[RobynDaBank]

WOW is still the largest MMO, we are close but WOW still holds it, and WOW maintains that title partially because they balance their casual and endgame content and have a decent difficulty levelling curve

14 just jumps from “cure 1 spam is fine to 99% of your GCD’s must be glare or we will enrage” with absolutely no middle ground and it’s a big part of why we have such poor capped population retention

Have you played WoW? Levelling for instance is in no way balanced because they don't have level sync - if you get put in a dungeon below your level your power is so awfully gimped you do less damage than an equal-level healer as a DD. And no, you can clear a dungeon with people helpless like that in the party. It sounds like you're thinking only about Mythic+ and raiding, which is ironic when you say the game is balanced for both casuals and endgame runners.

[Striker44]

WOW is still the largest MMO, we are close but WOW still holds it, and WOW maintains that title partially because they balance their casual and endgame content and have a decent difficulty levelling curve

14 just jumps from “cure 1 spam is fine to 99% of your GCD’s must be glare or we will enrage” with absolutely no middle ground and it’s a big part of why we have such poor capped population retention

It's honestly hard to respond to a post when nothing in that post seems connected to reality. WoW is probably still the largest in terms of pure players, but the trajectory it's going on is abysmal compared to FFXIV. It's not really considered the "best MMO" at the moment; it's just desperately hanging on to the small % of its original playerbase, which was plummeted, while FFXIV is enjoying its most played expansion to date.

Someone else already covered the lack of "balance" in WoW, and it's very well known for its "raid or die" mentality at end-game. There's practically nothing for the casual player there, compared to the veritable mountain of non-raid side content available in FFXIV.

And what's that about "poor capped player retention"? Frankly, I haven't seen that at all. You get the natural mid-to-late patch population dips that happen in _every_ MMO in existence, but in EW even those troughs maintain a significantly higher playerbase than similar troughs in past expansions. That "poor retention" simply doesn't exist relative to any other game in the genre.

[Supersnow845]

It's honestly hard to respond to a post when nothing in that post seems connected to reality. WoW is probably still the largest in terms of pure players, but the trajectory it's going on is abysmal compared to FFXIV. It's not really considered the "best MMO" at the moment; it's just desperately hanging on to the small % of its original playerbase, which was plummeted, while FFXIV is enjoying its most played expansion to date.

Someone else already covered the lack of "balance" in WoW, and it's very well known for its "raid or die" mentality at end-game. There's practically nothing for the casual player there, compared to the veritable mountain of non-raid side content available in FFXIV.

And what's that about "poor capped player retention"? Frankly, I haven't seen that at all. You get the natural mid-to-late patch population dips that happen in _every_ MMO in existence, but in EW even those troughs maintain a significantly higher playerbase than similar troughs in past expansions. That "poor retention" simply doesn't exist relative to any other game in the genre.

Yes WOW is on a downward trajectory, doesn’t mean that it isn’t still worth analysing as 14’s largest and closest competitor, people love to act like WOW is completely dead when it’s population is plateauing and it’s still far bigger than all its competition than 14

Balance is crap with time walking but current area and starting area as a levelling experience is more balanced than 14’s completely flat levelling curve, 14 just doesn’t challenge you at all. Plus there is plenty of stuff for casual people to do that isn’t mythic, especially because the game prepares you better for endgame content to be something between “extreme and AFK in limsa”

Lucky bancho always does census for the population of 14 and the percentage of the population dropping the game after around 6 months of reaching level 90 is increasing and has been since ShB, the game is basically becoming a single player game people drop at capped level, this has nothing to do with post patch lulls

[Deveryn]

WOW is still the largest MMO, we are close but WOW still holds it, and WOW maintains that title partially because they balance their casual and endgame content and have a decent difficulty levelling curve

14 just jumps from “cure 1 spam is fine to 99% of your GCD’s must be glare or we will enrage” with absolutely no middle ground and it’s a big part of why we have such poor capped population retention

WoW is and always was hot garbage. It's biggest appeal was how easy it was to run on any system. It had the simplest style and simplest gameplay, appealing to the absolute lowest common denominator. It really doesn't hold a candle to many others. Games like the Everquests still run despite it. I'm sick of hearing about it, especially when people come over and have to talk about how bad it was. I don't wanna hear about your ex. I wanna play and talk about XIV.

[Supersnow845]

WoW is and always was hot garbage. It's biggest appeal was how easy it was to run on any system. It had the simplest style and simplest gameplay, appealing to the absolute lowest common denominator. It really doesn't hold a candle to many others. Games like the Everquests still run despite it. I'm sick of hearing about it, especially when people come over and have to talk about how bad it was. I don't wanna hear about your ex. I wanna play and talk about XIV.

I haven’t played WOW (well not since WOTLK), I’m a legacy 14 player and played 11 before that, I’m simply not willing to pan off another massive MMO that makes some legit good decisions because I don’t like it

Thinking 14 is some god that is above criticism is just stupid, especially since ARR was based on WOW after legacy crashed