Adding attack-or-take-damage/die mechanics to end-game dungeons

[Thurs]

Since they made tanking all about dishing damage and not about soaking it, it's been down this road. They started with limiting then making tenacity pretty much useless (at least compared to how it was) and any materia build revolving aroudn it irrelevent. Savage has become a dps race, whatever your job. I'd be down for anything adding (back) some diversity to tanking tbh. But their policy of making the game and any feature accessible to anyone might not agree to that (especially considering how tank jobs can feel alike compared to wht they could be, say in Stormblood for instance).

[Lunalepsy]

Mechanics are a detrimental thorn to the game. Whatever happen to mastering your job and using all of your skills to kill a monster? It seems my skills are measured based on how many circles I can dodge per second. Truly a shame!

[Restonance]

Anything that isn't just avoiding the yellow circles is too hard for the average player to do. Some actual challenge in normal content would be lovely, but we got that before and it just gets nerfed. TG Cid is a prime example.

[Striker44]

But if someone is interested purely in the gameplay and fight mechanic he has to watch the 750+ quests of MSQ or pay to skip them up to endwalker, Just sounds like a weird double standard to me. I get it appeals to casuals who are the biggest part of the player base, but MMO and Final Fantasy in general appeal to people who love to do fights and sometimes grind, the last 3 main games (Minus XIV) gameplay loop is still about fighting monsters tons like you would expect from a JRPG.

What I'm trying to say is that you can blame MMO players to ask for harder normal content, that are rampant in the genre, when they play a game marketed as ''The best MMORPG on the market''

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG). There are other games that heavily emphasize endgame raiding and see the story as just something to blow through as a means to get you to endgame. FFXIV isn't that game. It would be like playing an FPS set in WWI and being disappointed that it doesn't include modern tanks and jets.

Remember, when WoW was far and away the "best MMORPG on the market," it attained that status precisely by being more casual-oriented than other MMO's at the time. And end-game raiding at that time was practically nothing more than tank-and-spank with occasionally one other mechanic at most involved. The "hardest" part of combat was actually just managing to get 40 people together to do a raid.

There's also a direct link between WoW shifting to a "raid or die" mentality focusing on ever-more-difficult combat and eSports, and it's loss of that "best MMO" status. Put quite simply, the unofficial "best MMO of the moment" title has a long history of going to the game that is most casual-friendly and doesn't focus on "harder" normal content.

[Deveryn]

Sort of like the fire/ice mechanics in some trial encounters, but instead the player has to keep moving while attacking to avoid it. I think it would be a good thing to add in, as I've found that the primary cause of enrages in savage PUGS I've participated in was due to DPS or tanks stopping their damage anytime they moved, even when in proximity to the boss. This can be a control scheme thing or just a result of normal encounters not requiring a run-and-gun approach to succeed. A "speed bump" mechanic to get the players to start thinking about how they can do that before hitting end game would be better than finding out in an 8-man savage/extreme group.

Savage encounters are one of the worst places to learn about this because the person in question doesn't know he's supposed to be attacking when moving and everyone is way too focused on mechanics to notice him. So by the time someone informs him he needs to attack while moving, it usually took four to six attempts to notice it.

So again, a mechanic that requires movement and actions at the same time to avoid damage, kind of like the "ice" mechanic on some trials, would probably be a good addition to the game's end-game dungeon encounters, if only to get players thinking about how to do that.

There's enough for people do learn in dungeons. It remains the starting point for learning mechs. For more advanced content, you step into trials and raids. (see: Vanaspati > Zodiark) You also start looking at some of the guides fellow players have taken the time to put together. Anytime I see people struggle in the EX / savage content, I always point them to a Mizzteq guide because the explanations are well done and better than I could do in the limited space of the chat box.

Perhaps the problem is people aren't running the dungeons and other content enough to where they actually learn beyond the first run through. There's so much that's recycled, but people don't even realize it because they rushed through and opted for things like pvp and prae to level up. It's time for people to take some personal responsibility in all of this. I've been told I take things too seriously, but it's clear folks don't take things seriously enough or they might actually get some proper enjoyment from clearing the content with fewer problems and getting better rewards.

[MercuryD]

Those mechanics have existed since ARR in dungeons and alliance raids so I don't see how you think we're missing them now? Plus since ShB they've introduced a lot more mechs that just can't be ignored because they do result in death (Grand Cosmos fire boss being an example someone else mentioned)

[Magikazam]

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG). There are other games that heavily emphasize endgame raiding and see the story as just something to blow through as a means to get you to endgame. FFXIV isn't that game. It would be like playing an FPS set in WWI and being disappointed that it doesn't include modern tanks and jets.

Remember, when WoW was far and away the "best MMORPG on the market," it attained that status precisely by being more casual-oriented than other MMO's at the time. And end-game raiding at that time was practically nothing more than tank-and-spank with occasionally one other mechanic at most involved. The "hardest" part of combat was actually just managing to get 40 people together to do a raid.

There's also a direct link between WoW shifting to a "raid or die" mentality focusing on ever-more-difficult combat and eSports, and it's loss of that "best MMO" status. Put quite simply, the unofficial "best MMO of the moment" title has a long history of going to the game that is most casual-friendly and doesn't focus on "harder" normal content.

It is a double standard, game is called a MMORPG, genre is known for having things like grind and gameplay-centered fights since the genre is a thing, Sure the newest best MMO will casualize the genre like WoW and Everquest did back then, but they kept the important gameplay loop of the genre, and that IMO is where I draw the line. What the next step? next MMORPG casualization step? if you wipe 3 times in extreme the boss commit senpuku so the casual player can get some shiny mount?

Also WoW did not die cause it was raid-focused and ''anti-casual'' FR not just show you never step in a wow raid in LFG difficulty ever. Nah the issue was bad dev management stockpiling since the last 5-7 years or so and just ignoring the player base interest in general, that and locking MSQ content behind time-gated content. to put it in FFXIV way, it wouldn't be bad to being forced to do pandemonium on normal difficulty once in the story, but it would be if they made it so you need full gears set of that place + good materia to even accept the next quest.

[vetch]

I wouldn't call it a double standard, more someone not realizing or accepting what FFXIV is about. If someone is purely interested in combat, why play a game that straight-up markets itself as primarily a story-based MMO (one of the reasons it's frequently called an RPGMMO instead of an MMORPG).

Terrible reasoning because both RPGs and MMOs have detailed battle systems for players to learn and enjoy even when they're trying to tell grandiose stories. It doesn't matter what order you put the acronym in.

[Imora]

So what mechanic is this actually about? The freeze mechanic used by Exdeath and the Seat of Sacrifice?

I use those mechanics to run around in little circles and giggle like a schoolgirl.

[Supersnow845]

You have to understand the most common player in this game isn't actually that good at this game. A lot of players are just here for the story. This is why so much story content has been nerfed into oblivion. The standard user can't and doesn't want to deal with mechanics so adding them to story mode just doesn't make sense. Better to keep them in Savage / Extreme where people are actually interested in the combat side of the game. I'm all for harder mechanics, but from a business standpoint it doesn't make sense for them.

Isn’t that what trusts are for

What’s the point nerfing the jobs into the ground and spending development time future proofing old content just to then make the new content a joke anyway

Either make the content harder but let it work with trusts, make the jobs harder but keep the content the same and work with trusts or do both but make trusts better, but spending all this time simplifying the content and making it trust accessible just for the content to still be a joke is starting to contribute to the greater proportion of people dropping the game at capped level