Rescue is Griefing

[Avatre]

Have I been "rescued" out of Ten Chi Jin when a healer mistook my DPS greed for incaution? Yes.

However, on the few occasions when I've seen rescue used, I've never seen it used to grief in a PUG.

I have had it attempted on me once....but the healers were talking about it in party chat. Was during Ozma, I like to stand just off the edge of the platform in melee range(when Ozma goes pyramid mode you dodge the laser in that spot) and the healers said something about pulling me back, off the edge, towards the outer ring. Right as they both got behind me I popped Arms Length. Doesn't happen often(heck that was the first time someone tried to do something like that to me). The only other time I've had rescue used on me I did end up getting killed...because the healer didn't realize I was going to the other safe spot and ended up dragging me through the fire AoE on the second boss of Copied Factory.

[Midareyukki]

Have I been "rescued" out of Ten Chi Jin when a healer mistook my DPS greed for incaution? Yes..

Do what I did. I knew the pug healer wasn't gonna see I was greeding, so I pressed Arm's Length to negate their Rescue and Shukuchi on time :P

It worked, I didn't die, probably got a very cross healer tho xD

I'd only do it if I knew what I was doing tho, so there's that disclaimer.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

I'm of the mind that if a healer "rescues" me for no reason, especially if it's into an AoE, then that's the hill i'm destined to die on. Maybe that AST pulled a card that said i'll need to die for the rest of the team to live long and prosper, maybe they're just an asshat. I'm not gonna start stressing about it either way.

[Skivvy]

I disagree, and here’s why.

For one, I play with a controller, so having to put down my controller to type in chat is generally not the first thing I do. Especially since people ignore chat half the time anyways.

Second, I’ve already tried the approach of “type in chat to tell people to move in” and they either ignore or just tell me to single-target them. I’m not going to deal with that, so now I choose to Rescue. I do it ONCE. If they move out, I leave them to their fate. If they die due to lack of heals and say something about it, I just respond that I tried to pull them closer so they received heals and they ran away and missed them all.

And this isn’t even something I do all the time. Honestly depends on my mood. If I’m in an aggressive healer sort of mood, I just let them die, raise, and say nothing unless they make a comment. They can deal with their bad decision. If I’m feeling more like I want to keep them alive, then I do the Rescue approach. Results are honestly mixed; some stay in the bubble and I’m guessing they realized what I was doing. Others just run away and I let them hit the floor if they refuse to move in and subsequently die.

I fail to see how this is any extra than moving someone to the safe side of an arena to avoid a cleave. Both are to save them from potentially dying, so they don’t really seem all that different to me.

I play on PC, so while it's still not the easiest to type during combat, I'd still prefer to say something quick in chat (if it's truly an issue) and let them fix it on their own vs. just doing it for them with no communication.

As to why I feel pulling them into a bubble is extra, as mentioned above, I typically only use it in alliance raids on moves that will kill the player. In my experience, standing in a bubble isn't going to be the determining factor for whether or not they die.

[Midareyukki]

Unpopular opinion, but if we're gonna argue about whether Rescue needs to exist or not, why don't we just admit that it's a veiled way of saying "People need to get good"?

With how many warps and mobility windows we currently have, there's almost no real reason to have healers pull people. Especially since it only works on one specific person anyway, that person can just as well move on their own. And if it's to "save people from death", just get good.

Because all that'd be left then would be the instances where it's actual griefing.

"Oh but I saved the run by pulling one guy and resolved a mechanic", yeah no, you took it upon yourself to save the run. That person should take it upon themself to do the same by using their own kit. Benign effect, sure, but it was still not your responsability. That person should not be hand-held, they should learn to resolve the mechanic on their own. It's only good for them and future groups they feature in.

Probably a bad take, but sometimes people do need to be told to stop relying on others for stuff they can very well do on their own. It's rare that Rescue is ACTUALLY required.

[HyoMinPark]

As to why I feel pulling them into a bubble is extra, as mentioned above, I typically only use it in alliance raids on moves that will kill the player. In my experience, standing in a bubble isn't going to be the determining factor for whether or not they die.

I disagree. Running Orbonne Monastery during the current Moogle event, I drop Asylum during the mini-boss prior to TGC. When he does the three back to back raid wides (after his add portals you have to stand on and the two sets of 3 line AOEs), dropping an Asylum and having one other HoT is enough to keep the entire party alive during all three without any additional healing needed. Someone standing outside of the Asylum does not get those extra HoT ticks from it and will drop dead by the third one as a result. This is just one example that is fresh in my mind since I’ve ran Orbonne enough for several hundred tomes since the event started.

Likewise, Earthly Star’s Giant Dominance detonation is enough to heal players up so that a subsequent raidwide is survivable without having to use extra healing tools. You’d be surprised at how people manage to still miss the Earthly Galaxy, but it makes more difference than you’re suggesting. Sacred Soils mitigation + regen at level 78+ also makes a lot of difference when people stand under it. Enough so that I don’t have to waste an oGCD resource (or GCD) on them.

EDIT: Another example I thought of is during Diabolos Hollow’s ultimate attack. Did you know that if you don’t have at least one aspect of mitigation on it (a barrier, Reprisal, Addle, or something like Sacred Soil/Kerachole), people will die from it? Usually the casters, physical ranged, and healers, since they have less HP. I found this out during the last Moogle event when my alliance was double WHM and there was no use of Addle, Feint, or Reprisal on the boss. I was overkilled by 500, which is literally damage variance. Everyone in my party was full HP, so it wasn’t like the kill was a result of missing health. Something like Kerachole, Soil, or even a GCD shield would have kept me (and half my alliance) alive.

It was truly amusing to see, though. The stat squish did do wonders for making that raid actually hurt a little bit again.

[Skivvy]

Unpopular opinion, but if we're gonna argue about whether Rescue needs to exist or not, why don't we just admit that it's a veiled way of saying "People need to get good"?

With how many warps and mobility windows we currently have, there's almost no real reason to have healers pull people. Especially since it only works on one specific person anyway, that person can just as well move on their own. And if it's to "save people from death", just get good.

Because all that'd be left then would be the instances where it's actual griefing.

"Oh but I saved the run by pulling one guy and resolved a mechanic", yeah no, you took it upon yourself to save the run. That person should take it upon themself to do the same by using their own kit. Benign effect, sure, but it was still not your responsability. That person should not be hand-held, they should learn to resolve the mechanic on their own. It's only good for them and future groups they feature in.

Probably a bad take, but sometimes people do need to be told to stop relying on others for stuff they can very well do on their own. It's rare that Rescue is ACTUALLY required.

Welcome to healers! We're the babysitters of the game.

You have yours leveled, so you probably know how dull runs can be as a healer when people run things perfectly. It's almost to the point where they could get rid of healers and just rework the other jobs to add more self-sustain and call it a day....assuming people were on top of things*.

But thankfully (?) we all like to make mistakes now and then, granted some people more often than others. If we're getting into the argument that people need to git gud and learn from their mistakes, to take it to the extreme, why should we bother healing them in the first place if they took avoidable damage? Obviously we should all strive towards self-improvement, and sometimes a lesson does stick best after a massive failure, but as a healer, our kit is there to try and keep things running smoothly. I know people love to claim that no one ever listens to a word said in party chat, but plenty of people do, and I'd recommend people giving that a shot now and then.

I do agree that it's rare that rescue is truly needed.



*I'm gonna assume healers still have a purpose for ultimates/savage/etc. :3

[Midareyukki]

Welcome to healers! We're the babysitters of the game.

You have yours leveled, so you probably know how dull runs can be as a healer when people run things perfectly. It's almost to the point where they could get rid of healers and just rework the other jobs to add more self-sustain and call it a day....assuming people were on top of things*.

But thankfully (?) we all like to make mistakes now and then, granted some people more often than others. If we're getting into the argument that people need to git gud and learn from their mistakes, to take it to the extreme, why should we bother healing them in the first place if they took avoidable damage? Obviously we should all strive towards self-improvement, and sometimes a lesson does stick best after a massive failure, but as a healer, our kit is there to try and keep things running smoothly. I know people love to claim that no one ever listens to a word said in party chat, but plenty of people do, and I'd recommend people giving that a shot now and then.

I do agree that it's rare that rescue is truly needed.

Except what you're describing is the healer's own job description: to heal missing health and keeping people alive. If a stooge does land on The Bad™, then it's annoying but it's part of our job as a healer. It's literally the difference between us and DPS. Unfortunate effects, but that's why we're there.

We're NOT responsible for the person being hit in the first place, nor should we be made to be. You can argue that it's as much a healing tool as a shield tbh, you're preventing damage, but it's already been proven to be incredibly intrusive whereas shields are not. And worse, similar stuff exists in other peoples' kit, such as Second Wind and personal shields, but they don't deny our existence. Only cover for one singular hit. The use of rescue, on the other hand, negates there needing to be mobility tools. After all, why bother having Shukuchi or Aetherial Manip if you can just nag the healer to adjust for you?

That isn't a logic extreme you can extrapolate out of what I said, you're conflating two ideas and snowballing out of it based only on the idea that we're there to babysit.

You're only there to babysit as much as you want, because it's not up to you to rescue every single person and know exactly when it's okay or not to pull them. You are there to be a healer when required and deal damage when not. Other people should pull their weight just as much as you do. If I wanted to babysit, I'd start charging for it.

Otherwise, yeah, it's a double standard. We're not responsible for people doing well and keeping themselves alive. There's a limit to what we do when faced with what other people can do. If a tank can use cooldowns, why the hell do I have to go out of my way and strain myself for someone who doesn't want to meet me halfway? Just use cooldowns, move out of the bad. Accidents happen, and those are stuff I can understand... but they shoudl not be on me for failing to pull you away from those accidents.

Keep in mind also that you're only saying that, that it's a part of our job as healers to do so, simply because Rescue exists. Prior to SB, this mindset did not exist. It was created only bc of the skill itself, concentrating responsability on the healer and making people forget that no, it's not our job to save a guy from going to the red puddle. They should know better, that's part of the game.

Though I guess I feel this way because I'm angry at what happened to me in savage before. Being told that the whole group needed to adjust around one person that refused to learn the game and improve as to not be a detriment to the group. And would then throw a tantrum when called out on it. It isn't our job to bend over backwards for someone who doesn't want to meet us halfway. Which hurt doubly so when I did my best to overcome my own physical health to play with my groups, finding tricks and roundabout ways to handle situations, only to then see someone not do the same and have everyone adjust to her alone. It just isn't fair to 7 other people; one thing is "I struggle with this", another thing is "I won't even try".

I don't think Rescue is griefing, but it does remove agency from people and excuses something that really just shouldn't be excused. And when used incorrectly, it can be quite bitter.

[VerdeLuck]

I just hate healers yanking me out of safe spots on crystal tower or into pits like on Dohn Mheg because they think it's funny. Give me a way to turn it off like other games like Dota do.

[Bobby66]

Hey healing is boring enough as is let healers have their once every 2 min for the memes button. Think of the healers.