Volcanic Heart is a bad map

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

just vibing and actually liking Volcanic Heart, favourite map

Can see how you guys feel about stage hazards, but at least in case of VH you don't have to hit the chocobo feather, use Guard or get hit for 30000 dmg, you can actually use the arena to your advantage both defensively and offensively. You are less likely being chased down if Bomb lines come crashing down your lane, however standing in these lines makes you highly vulnerable to aftereffects of hard CC (Stun, Sleep, Bind, Charmed), at least that is how I see it.

Regarding the argument about walls, I'd argue walls are a massively necessary evil in PvP, especially since they shortened the average time to kill with the 6.1 PvP overhaul. However, I could argue that the position of the speedlane walls make for some nice coddling.

Conversely, mid point + transition from 2nd to final point on Cloud9 are open space nightmares, wanting either team to effectively avoid confrontation until the crystal sits in a location with at least one favourable wall to play around.

Here an awfully simplistic birdseye view made in paint, highlighting the combat zones being a heaven for passive players since engaging into these zones tends to require either a LOT of resources (premature Guard to bait for example) or a lot of commitment from your whole team to make a push work, generally only seen in higher levels of play.



Here is what I'd do to the map to break the horrible midpoint footsie battle stalemate and making approaching the enemy less of a ballache.
- purple = new walls
- healthpack locations adjusted
- if neither 2nd point is captured, then the wind pad will lead to a location closer to mid, but as an alternative route to break stalemates, but with a weakness of being somewhat in the open



Goal of the triangular elements on mid is to reduce how much you can coddle safely in a corner, the additional wall along travel path both serves as protection for attackers against people who hang around bridge but also for defenders who need a shorter distance to a wall for defensive purposes.

Pillars added on 2nd -> Last to give an alternative route to approach the crystal without standing completely in the open.

Healthpack locations for 2nd -> are adjusted to be more accessible to either side, for middle it is a replacement due to the added triangles blocking the deep corners.

Feel free to criticise btw, I want to learn / get better at map design for PvP purposes outside of FFXIV, so input (with reasoning to "why") is highly appreciated.

[Zachia]

This right here is Exactly if not a bit above and beyond (compliment) of what I expect in a topic of debate. Either fully explain why i'm wrong and how or find a solution and provide it. This is quite amazing not that I can really understand the graph layout, however there looks like a lot less pillars and just bigger walls but at the same time longer lanes that give both melee and range a bit more of a fair balance. Thank you for your feedback ^_^

[Baxcel]

I actually prefer Volcano as a tank in pvp but I also like the cloud one somewhat too.. the one in old Shar is the one I hate.Haye.. it's so boring and the lack of hazard just bores me, I already deal less damage then the other classes even the healers in pvp so a map that will punish people for not being aware is great

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I actually prefer Volcano as a tank in pvp but I also like the cloud one somewhat too.. the one in old Shar is the one I hate.Haye.. it's so boring and the lack of hazard just bores me, I already deal less damage then the other classes even the healers in pvp so a map that will punish people for not being aware is great

On a similar opinion wiith you, but as a vanilla map so to speak it is okay to not have any stage hazards.

However the speedlanes are a bit weird to utilise, which together with the nightmarish midpoint without any walls to approach and even letting ranged have a corner they can safely shoot over... rough times for melees and tanks until the crystal swings, then you have walls to play around.

[Gserpent]

So you say to basically "git good' and then detail why range have a large disadvantage on the map. I also love your idea of just always make sure guard and purify are up...you do realize these actions have cooldowns right and may be needed to be used before this part happens?

Oh, so you mean you can be outplayed by the opposing team and forced to use these abilities and skills when there's an environmental hazard coming up that you'd prefer to save them for?

It's almost like the team that pays attention to these sorts of things and capitalizes on them is given an advantage of some sort. It's like it's a learned skill or something.

This right here is Exactly if not a bit above and beyond (compliment) of what I expect in a topic of debate. Either fully explain why i'm wrong and how or find a solution and provide it. This is quite amazing not that I can really understand the graph layout, however there looks like a lot less pillars and just bigger walls but at the same time longer lanes that give both melee and range a bit more of a fair balance. Thank you for your feedback ^_^

People *have* been explaining why you're wrong, though. It is a PEBKAC issue. You are not good enough at the game to overcome the challenges and changes in tactics required on maps with different layouts and hazards. And that's okay! Everyone was bad or unskilled once. But getting upset when people are correcting you and telling you that what you consider a problem, is not actually a problem, is just immaturity. Personally, I think every match of CC should be a random map instead of the existing rotation so that people can't dodge maps they dislike. People should be forced to learn all of the maps and how the differences in those maps require changes in tactics... in ranked, at least. Casual could still have the static rotation.

All three maps are well-made and well-designed, though none of them are *perfect.* C9 needs mid to be less open, for example. But VH and Palaistra are both pretty well designed and I don't think they really need any significant changes. There's plenty of open spaces in VH, just not in center-mid.

[Zachia]

Look you can say its a skill issue all you want but here's the thing. I've read your posts, you're pretty harsh, unforgiving, trollish, and you don't really debate, most of your statements boil down to "git gud scrub". Man you don't even have to explain you could just link a video of someone else explaining the map and such but you guys can't even do that. You guys don't have reliable opinions, and because you don't debate outside of "git gud" no one will take you seriously or anyone else who says it. On top of that the pvp forums seem to have a bias against ranged jobs so me coming in and saying "this map favors melee, get rid of it" its going to upset a lot of melee mains which is exactly what it seems here. And you know what i've played melee jobs on this volcanic map and i excelled because i know how to use the map to my advantage, but as a range i don't. I'm not some stupid kid you can just push aside because a few of you think you're the players to have ever touched the game.

[Gserpent]

Look you can say its a skill issue all you want but here's the thing. I've read your posts, you're pretty harsh, unforgiving, trollish, and you don't really debate, most of your statements boil down to "git gud scrub". Man you don't even have to explain you could just link a video of someone else explaining the map and such but you guys can't even do that. You guys don't have reliable opinions, and because you don't debate outside of "git gud" no one will take you seriously or anyone else who says it. On top of that the pvp forums seem to have a bias against ranged jobs so me coming in and saying "this map favors melee, get rid of it" its going to upset a lot of melee mains which is exactly what it seems here. And you know what i've played melee jobs on this volcanic map and i excelled because i know how to use the map to my advantage, but as a range i don't. I'm not some stupid kid you can just push aside because a few of you think you're the players to have ever touched the game.

I literally told you how to adjust your play to suit VH and C9 in my first post in this thread.

I'm harsh because there's no point in coddling people who are complaining about things that are not actual problems. They are problems because they lack skill and knowledge, *and the best way to gain those is to actually go out and play more games.* Sometimes someone telling you what you need to be doing can help, but Crystalline Conflict is not a complicated game mode and none of the classes are complicated, either. If you are intelligent enough to find your way here and to create a post, you are certainly intelligent enough to arrive to solutions to your problems on your own by just playing more games and swallowing your desire to complain about things in favor of just playing more games.

A lot of getting better is just learning to analyze things. What killed you? Why did it kill you? What sequence of events lead to that killing you? What could you have done differently? At what points could you have done something differently that would have prevented your death? And you also do this for kills - how did you kill them, why did it work, what could they have done differently to prevent their death, what could you have done in response to them trying something else to ensure they still died, etc.

It's actually the same process you engage in to become better at a real-world job's skills, or to actually remember and take in what you're studying in classes, etc. In a lot of cases, it's all just automatic. But sometimes it helps to take a moment to digest what happened, especially if you feel like you did nothing wrong but still lost. Many times, you lost because your teammates screwed up - but you can't control that, so it's pointless to try and analyze it until you're confident you aren't making a lot of mistakes in your own play. Fix your play first, and then once you do that, you can try to apply the process to what your teammates were doing. Doing this helps you understand other classes, even if you don't play them. It's the equivalent of using flash cards or other processes to help you memorize and grasp a subject prior to an exam or something.

I'm not interested in sugar coating things. Doing that does not help people improve, does not give them what they need to improve. Sometimes you just have to admit you aren't very good, and solution really is to just "git gud." Like I said, it's not a complicated mode. Spending less time complaining and more time playing, and analyzing your play, is going to get you better results. If this game had replays, this is where we'd go "upload a replay so we can go over this game with you and help you identify errors", but sadly that's not an option. But if you reach a point where you're genuinely mystified what happened, you could always record/highlight a match and then share it here. That's the closest option we get.

[Ransu]

Imagine being so bad that you call changing your tactics a map design failure. Look, ranged are actually just fine on VH. The LoS is as much a boon as a hazard. But It's designed for you to put your skill and tactics to use and use the map to your advantage. If you think that is bad designed, than it is a skill issue for you.

Like I said in a previous post. Heavy LoS map is fine and is just as helpful to ranged as it is to melee when it comes to escaping and surviving. Generally when playing ranged I like to be near a lot of LoS to get away easier. My main problem with that map outside of my general dislike of the disaster mechanics is the piss poor camera collision.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I literally told you how to adjust your play to suit VH and C9 in my first post in this thread.

I'm harsh because there's no point in coddling people who are complaining about things that are not actual problems. [...]

It's actually the same process you engage in to become better at a real-world job's skills, or to actually remember and take in what you're studying in classes, etc. In a lot of cases, it's all just automatic. [...]

I'm not interested in sugar coating things. Doing that does not help people improve, does not give them what they need to improve. Sometimes you just have to admit you aren't very good, and solution really is to just "git gud."[...]

(sorry for the grossly reduced quote, wanted to save space)
Look, while I can see where you are coming from and can also see you are absolutely trying to be helpful - which you are, no doubt, you are tackling OP's dilemma not exactly in a way that works well for them.. Helping people improve has no "one size fits all" formula, something that should be obvious since you so kindly cited the real-world job skills scenario. Two students learn at different speeds, the slower may need a different approach than what a teacher gives them to improve in a subject. Eventually the slower student catches up and is for all we know a master at it, but he still has his right to swear like a sailor to think "I learned this, but I still think this is BS the way it works".

So honestly, you being harsh may work on probably 75% of people who struggled, but you are clearly missing the mark here. Not every player has a toughened mindset like you and I. It doesn't need to be "coddling", but you could dial it back a bit instead of throwing "skill issue, get over it"

The way I see it, OP sees an initial problem with Volcanic Heart with the way the map is designed. This may be due to being not as experienced, the general advice being "one size fits all" again but also because there way be a genuine clash of ideas of what should and should not be part of PVP map design, an opinion if you will. This is why we are here, to discuss and debate about the state of the map, which is what the thread is about.

[Gserpent]

(sorry for the grossly reduced quote, wanted to save space)
Look, while I can see where you are coming from and can also see you are absolutely trying to be helpful - which you are, no doubt, you are tackling OP's dilemma not exactly in a way that works well for them.. Helping people improve has no "one size fits all" formula, something that should be obvious since you so kindly cited the real-world job skills scenario. Two students learn at different speeds, the slower may need a different approach than what a teacher gives them to improve in a subject. Eventually the slower student catches up and is for all we know a master at it, but he still has his right to swear like a sailor to think "I learned this, but I still think this is BS the way it works".

So honestly, you being harsh may work on probably 75% of people who struggled, but you are clearly missing the mark here. Not every player has a toughened mindset like you and I. It doesn't need to be "coddling", but you could dial it back a bit instead of throwing "skill issue, get over it"

The way I see it, OP sees an initial problem with Volcanic Heart with the way the map is designed. This may be due to being not as experienced, the general advice being "one size fits all" again but also because there way be a genuine clash of ideas of what should and should not be part of PVP map design, an opinion if you will. This is why we are here, to discuss and debate about the state of the map, which is what the thread is about.

That's why I literally explained why they were wrong and provided examples of how they could adjust their play to suit the map's needs in my first post.