Contradictions, Double Standards, Counterintuitive Design

[Sebazy]

Everyone, of course, ignores all that and now believes DSU can be solo healed by anyone and everyone. Because...of course they do.

See, it's lines like this that make people really want to disagree with you.

Believe it or not, not everything has to be exactly 0 or 100% (except this group's percentile in this case ofc! )

That doesn't mean the Job (since all healers are this way) is badly designed. It means the content is not being well designed.

But they are though?

Pick any one Resto Druid ability and try to clear dungeons and casual raids with it. It just wouldn't work.

Meanwhile in FFXIV, you could easily clear Normal Modes, 24 mans and arguably even Extremes with just medica II. Dungeons would ironically be a little tougher needing the tank to cooperate with cooldowns on trash pulls but that's certainly not that steep a challenge either.

So what's the difference here? It's the nuance within the healer's toolkits IMHO. WoW had a greater emphasis on combinations of abilities adding up to make them greater than the sum of their parts. Of course not every healing class was perfect in this aspect, but it's plain to see that the regular favourites tended to have the most emphasis on this. Other MMOs that are regularly touted as having good healers also similar in this regard, SWTOR and Warhammer Online being particular favourites of mine. The healing kits were tightly designed with a ton of interaction between various abilities and resources.

FFXIV has very little of that and what interactions it does have are merely 'press this button for more healing for x seconds' with the only complexity really being remembering what's a spell vs an ability.

Compared to WoW, Swtor or Wol, FFXIV's healers are badly designed, no ifs no buts.

[ASkellington]

You don't need to USE WHM's complexity in currently designed content.

That doesn't mean the Job (since all healers are this way) is badly designed. It means the content is not being well designed.

And here's where we disagree. You aren't entirely wrong in that WHM or any healer is truly horribly designed but the thing is:

SE has already gone on record saying they aren't increasing outgoing damage for healers to heal. Not just in dungeon content, but in all content as evident by we have yet to see consistent damage that requires two healers at their best.

Now, if we aren't going to be using our full healing kit, then yes, healers are badly designed for the content in the game and need to be redesigned to match. <---This is what we mean by healers are badly designed.

[Silver-Strider]

That's pretty insane and indicative of an exceptional team pushing the limits of what's possible.

They also said they were at it for 10 days (?!) and had to get the RNG of the mechanics to line up JUST right for it to even be possible. Everyone, of course, ignores all that and now believes DSU can be solo healed by anyone and everyone. Because...of course they do.

Similar arguments were used when TEA was solo healed as well. "Oh it was an AST so its fine" SCH and WHM then clear it as well and radio silence after that.
"RNG needs to line up just right for it to be possible" Well RNG lined up and these people cleared it so what's the actual argument being made? If RNG favors it, what's exactly stopping other people from following suit other than player skill? These are ULTIMATE fights, something that should require above average players to clear it in the first place so what's to stop equally skilled SCH/WHM/SGE from clearing it if they can get the RNG to do so? If RNG is literally the only factor that determines whether a 2nd healer is needed or not, there's a problem.

No, I'm looking at kits, interactions, and how they work in a mechanical sense.

I've already submitted for the sake of argument that CONTENT is too easy. I've said for months now we have too many oGCDs, they're too powerful, and fights are too scripted.

That doesn't mean the Job (since all healers are this way) is badly designed. It means the content is not being well designed.

This seems contradictory because I fail to see how too many powerful oGCD is NOT a job design problem. Making the content actually warrant the oversaturated amount of oGCDs healers get wouldn't resolve the issue because everything that came before that content would be unaffected and leave those areas of the game woefully underdeveloped, doing nothing to make healers more engaging in that content and even less motivated to run it. Removing/Nerfing oGCDs shows that there IS a problem with job design being overtuned.

If you don't need to use WHM's "supposed" complexity for current content, then what's the problem of adding to that complexity? You yourself said you don't need to use that complexity, so why can't we have more DPS buttons? You don't need to use it, right? You're killing your own arguments here.

[Hellebore_Ghrian]

Even I can state non-sense logic easily by bending some facts.

Here the following :

Most of healing actions are unecessary to clear content
Emotes are unecessary to clear content
Most of healing action are emotes.

Sad, but almost true.

[Hezhi]

Don’t forget the double standard of when Ultimate was coming out they stated they didn’t want to make any drastic changes to healers in case players couldn’t handle it. Meanwhile directly after that they talk about drastic changes to dps jobs they’re making before Ultimate but trust in the players to be able to adapt quick enough before Ultimate released…. Guess SE just sees healer mains as ignorant and horrible at adapting lul.

The only thing we had to learn and adapt to is coping for the loss of kaiten, all they gave SAM was a mindless and thorough gutting
Still not as gutted as u guys tho

[NobleWinter]

How do you play WHM well and not see a problem? If you are sitting there pressing Glare over and over and completely ignore most of the abilities you leveled up for hours to obtain how you can you think the job is designed well? I like learning abilities as I level to add depth to my class. The amount of skills healing has me interacting with is just sad in regular duties. I'm still mad that the two lions in Aglaia do a single unavoidable raid wide attack. It's at the very beginning of the fight and no other damage besides avoidable orange circles happens for the rest of the battle. That means you can literally DPS the entire time. You don't need to heal anything. That's level 90 content designed to be farmed over and over so people are going to stop standing in aoes and eventually healers do nothing but DPS and yet still can't have a proper DPS kit. It's absolute madness to think my once absolute favorite role has been reduced to that.

[Renathras]

See, it's lines like this that make people really want to disagree with you.

1) No, it isn't - these folks already disagree with me only on the basis I think healing is enjoyable right now.

2) Further, that's the actual argument people are making in this thread - that one group of HIGHLY SKILLED PLAYERS WITH PERFECT RNG were able to do this means that healing IN THE ENTIRE GAME, INCLUDING ULTIMATE is broken. The logical interpretation is that they think that others can do this, and that it's approachable enough that more or less anyone can do it, because if that was not the case, then the argument collapses. You HAVE to think that this is something relatively anyone can do, otherwise one group of hyper-elite players doing it wouldn't be a problem.

EDIT:

Pick any one Resto Druid ability and try to clear dungeons and casual raids with it. It just wouldn't work.

OBJECTION: Straw man fallacy.

This solo Ultimate clearing AST did not use only one button.

This is an apples to porcupines comparison, but I'll indulge anyway.

Further, pick any level 90 content in the game right now and have a Healer heal it successfully pressing only one button and no others. THAT INCLUDES NO OGCDS, since those are buttons. Unless your tank VASTLY outgears content (or is a WAR/PLD, since they can solo everything just about anyway), you will have to press another button at some point. The only exception to this MIGHT be SCH because Eos's healing, but there are some wall to wall pulls in 4 mans that will splatter Tanks who aren't using Bloodwhetting.

So if we allow hypothetical Druid to transition to WoW and use just one ability? Well, pretty sure they could clear Aglaia with just Rejuvenation...so that already defeats your argument, doesn't it? But if you mean in WoW: This goes back to my argument that the problem in FFXIV is too little damage, not healer kits not being designed well. So see the above argument on "well designed".

So what's the difference here? It's the nuance within the healer's toolkits IMHO.

No, it's that WoW encounters actually do threatening damage. Indeed, many WoW healer kits DON'T have nuance, or not any significantly greater nuance than FFXIV's healers HEALING kits already have. WoW also has a greater emphasis on ability combinations because it doesn't have an oGCD weaving system. Something to keep in mind when comparing and contrasting the two.

But again: It's the encounters, not the kit designs, that are the problem. You're making my arguments for me...yet not seeing it.

Compared to WoW, Swtor or Wol, FFXIV's healers are badly designed, no ifs no buts.

Disagree. Put WHM into WoW right now. Like basically transplant its entire kit. It would fit right in alongside Druid as a raid/party healer. Your argument is that FFXIV's ENCOUNTERS are badly designed, not the healing kits, as the healing kits transferred to any other MMO (where damage is actually more serious) would fit in just fine. Indeed, Freecure might actually be useful in WoW with WoW's different MP regen mechanics.

.

But, I'm probably going to leave this thread and this forum soon. It's a hell of an echo chamber.

I know you guys rag on Reddit, but look at that Reddit thread. People are arguing all the points, and people on both sides are getting upvotes and conversation.

Here, I'm the only person in this thread arguing this position, and anyone ragging on me is getting tons of likes (relative to this thread's activity level) while not one of my posts, not even my neutral tone first one that is making a reasonable statement - has a single like.

This place is more of an echo chamber than r/ffxiv. Which...honestly? Is kind of impressive...

.

I will note that, of the people here, you've been among the most reasonable. Pity... Farewell.

Now, if we aren't going to be using our full healing kit, then yes, healers are badly designed for the content in the game and need to be redesigned to match.

You say we disagree, but this is my argument here, too. Yet you get 16 likes for saying the same thing.

Note that this is a glass half full/empty argument. We agree that the current encounter design and healing kits do not mesh. My argument is that means the encounters are badly designed, yours is that healers is..while noting that healers AREN'T "truly horribly" designed...which is...my argument.

So I'm not sure we disagree, since we're saying the same thing. It's more we disagree on the solution - to me, the encounters need to be changed going forward, to you, the healers' do. I presume from your perspective it's their DPS kits that need to be changed...which completely ignores the problem.

Hell, I've even argued that healer oGCDs are too powerful and need to be nerfed to actually force GCD healing and that would also address the problem you note of healers being able to solo heal at the same time!

Similar arguments were used when TEA was solo healed as well. "Oh it was an AST so its fine" SCH and WHM then clear it as well and radio silence after that.
"RNG needs to line up just right for it to be possible" Well RNG lined up and these people cleared it so what's the actual argument being made?

That being able to solo heal something only if you have maximum skilled and dedicated people throwing themselves at it over and over again and still it's a coin flip meaning RNG could make it where they NEVER succeed.

That's the actual argument being made.

This seems contradictory because I fail to see how too many powerful oGCD is NOT a job design problem.

Because it's not?

Suppose you are eating more calories than you are working out to burn. So you're getting fat. And you say "This is a calorie problem" and I say "No, it's a you not working out enough problem". Both answers are actually correct, as addressing either over calorie intake OR low calorie burn (or both) would lead to a solution.

Making the content actually warrant the oversaturated amount of oGCDs healers get wouldn't resolve the issue because everything that came before that content would be unaffected

And? This has been the case since 3.0 added a new level cap, new gear, new abilities, and new Jobs. This has never been a problem before. The content has been "woefully underdeveloped" for, what, 8 years now?

If you don't need to use WHM's "supposed" complexity for current content, then what's the problem of adding to that complexity?

Because the complexity is already there? We just need encounters that flex that.

But they are though?

If we define "well designed" as "needs 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps, and all of them need to be playing well", then a solo healed Ultimate and all Tank clears of P1S would, indeed, imply that the encounters are poorly designed, yes. How else would you interpret that?

[SaberMaxwell]

1,668 pulls. 160 hours. About a month and a half worth of days we've gone so far. We've seen 2.2% enrage and are hoping to kill dsr tonight. We're not the absolute best group out there of course, but we're probably about average.

So ten days is super impressive. It's a ridiculously impressively small amount of time to get all needed healing and mitigation lined up and accomplished including rng possibly oneshotting group members. And as I've stated in another thread the rng's real difficulty doesn't come from rng causing damage, it comes from healer role targeted mechanics which are artificial ways of trying to enforce multiple healers.

What this group did is even more impressive considering they bypassed those artificial restrictions and won anyway, but that also means that without those roadblocks solo healing dsr would be a more accessible feat.

[Sebazy]

1) No, it isn't - these folks already disagree with me only on the basis I think healing is enjoyable right now.

Yes, it, is.

You then proceed to make exactly the same kind of BS exaggeration claim again. You're effectively having the forum equivalent of a tantrum like a small child, it looks sad and it makes it really hard to actually try and focus in on the actual decent and relevant points you're making elsewhere in your posts.

2) Further, that's the actual argument people are making in this thread - that one group of HIGHLY SKILLED PLAYERS WITH PERFECT RNG were able to do this means that healing IN THE ENTIRE GAME, INCLUDING ULTIMATE is broken.

Please just stop with this, you're doing yourself a disservice and again, It's just making people want to argue with you on principle. I don't know how I can make this any clearer. This is a complete BS exaggeration as pretty much everyone in this thread arguing with you has openly stated that there are plenty of occasions in the game where healing is actually good fun, leveling dungeons being the immediate and obvious answer.

Enough with the tantrum posting already.

OBJECTION: Straw man fallacy.

This solo Ultimate clearing AST did not use only one button.

......what?

Since when is DSR a dungeon or casual raid?

With that I'm done, I honestly couldn't care less about how relevant, accurate or interesting the rest of your post is because I can't be bothered if you're just going to come out with stupid stuff like this.

Have fun getting flamed sir.

[Renathras]

Yes, it, is.

NO.

It's not.

Because I was getting these same types of replies before.

You then proceed to make exactly the same kind of BS exaggeration claim again. You're effectively having the forum equivalent of a tantrum like a small child, it looks sad and it makes it really hard to actually try and focus in on the actual decent and relevant points you're making elsewhere in your posts.

People already weren't focusing on actual relevant points I was making. See above statement.

Also: ...you know what?
Never mind.

I'm done.

Have a good day and farewell.

EDIT:

Have fun getting flamed sir.

And you say I'm throwing a forum tantrum.

Yeah, I...take it back.

Anyway, farewell.