Contradictions, Double Standards, Counterintuitive Design

[Renathras]

See, it's lines like this that make people really want to disagree with you.

1) No, it isn't - these folks already disagree with me only on the basis I think healing is enjoyable right now.

2) Further, that's the actual argument people are making in this thread - that one group of HIGHLY SKILLED PLAYERS WITH PERFECT RNG were able to do this means that healing IN THE ENTIRE GAME, INCLUDING ULTIMATE is broken. The logical interpretation is that they think that others can do this, and that it's approachable enough that more or less anyone can do it, because if that was not the case, then the argument collapses. You HAVE to think that this is something relatively anyone can do, otherwise one group of hyper-elite players doing it wouldn't be a problem.

EDIT:

Pick any one Resto Druid ability and try to clear dungeons and casual raids with it. It just wouldn't work.

OBJECTION: Straw man fallacy.

This solo Ultimate clearing AST did not use only one button.

This is an apples to porcupines comparison, but I'll indulge anyway.

Further, pick any level 90 content in the game right now and have a Healer heal it successfully pressing only one button and no others. THAT INCLUDES NO OGCDS, since those are buttons. Unless your tank VASTLY outgears content (or is a WAR/PLD, since they can solo everything just about anyway), you will have to press another button at some point. The only exception to this MIGHT be SCH because Eos's healing, but there are some wall to wall pulls in 4 mans that will splatter Tanks who aren't using Bloodwhetting.

So if we allow hypothetical Druid to transition to WoW and use just one ability? Well, pretty sure they could clear Aglaia with just Rejuvenation...so that already defeats your argument, doesn't it? But if you mean in WoW: This goes back to my argument that the problem in FFXIV is too little damage, not healer kits not being designed well. So see the above argument on "well designed".

So what's the difference here? It's the nuance within the healer's toolkits IMHO.

No, it's that WoW encounters actually do threatening damage. Indeed, many WoW healer kits DON'T have nuance, or not any significantly greater nuance than FFXIV's healers HEALING kits already have. WoW also has a greater emphasis on ability combinations because it doesn't have an oGCD weaving system. Something to keep in mind when comparing and contrasting the two.

But again: It's the encounters, not the kit designs, that are the problem. You're making my arguments for me...yet not seeing it.

Compared to WoW, Swtor or Wol, FFXIV's healers are badly designed, no ifs no buts.

Disagree. Put WHM into WoW right now. Like basically transplant its entire kit. It would fit right in alongside Druid as a raid/party healer. Your argument is that FFXIV's ENCOUNTERS are badly designed, not the healing kits, as the healing kits transferred to any other MMO (where damage is actually more serious) would fit in just fine. Indeed, Freecure might actually be useful in WoW with WoW's different MP regen mechanics.

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But, I'm probably going to leave this thread and this forum soon. It's a hell of an echo chamber.

I know you guys rag on Reddit, but look at that Reddit thread. People are arguing all the points, and people on both sides are getting upvotes and conversation.

Here, I'm the only person in this thread arguing this position, and anyone ragging on me is getting tons of likes (relative to this thread's activity level) while not one of my posts, not even my neutral tone first one that is making a reasonable statement - has a single like.

This place is more of an echo chamber than r/ffxiv. Which...honestly? Is kind of impressive...

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I will note that, of the people here, you've been among the most reasonable. Pity... Farewell.

Now, if we aren't going to be using our full healing kit, then yes, healers are badly designed for the content in the game and need to be redesigned to match.

You say we disagree, but this is my argument here, too. Yet you get 16 likes for saying the same thing.

Note that this is a glass half full/empty argument. We agree that the current encounter design and healing kits do not mesh. My argument is that means the encounters are badly designed, yours is that healers is..while noting that healers AREN'T "truly horribly" designed...which is...my argument.

So I'm not sure we disagree, since we're saying the same thing. It's more we disagree on the solution - to me, the encounters need to be changed going forward, to you, the healers' do. I presume from your perspective it's their DPS kits that need to be changed...which completely ignores the problem.

Hell, I've even argued that healer oGCDs are too powerful and need to be nerfed to actually force GCD healing and that would also address the problem you note of healers being able to solo heal at the same time!

Similar arguments were used when TEA was solo healed as well. "Oh it was an AST so its fine" SCH and WHM then clear it as well and radio silence after that.
"RNG needs to line up just right for it to be possible" Well RNG lined up and these people cleared it so what's the actual argument being made?

That being able to solo heal something only if you have maximum skilled and dedicated people throwing themselves at it over and over again and still it's a coin flip meaning RNG could make it where they NEVER succeed.

That's the actual argument being made.

This seems contradictory because I fail to see how too many powerful oGCD is NOT a job design problem.

Because it's not?

Suppose you are eating more calories than you are working out to burn. So you're getting fat. And you say "This is a calorie problem" and I say "No, it's a you not working out enough problem". Both answers are actually correct, as addressing either over calorie intake OR low calorie burn (or both) would lead to a solution.

Making the content actually warrant the oversaturated amount of oGCDs healers get wouldn't resolve the issue because everything that came before that content would be unaffected

And? This has been the case since 3.0 added a new level cap, new gear, new abilities, and new Jobs. This has never been a problem before. The content has been "woefully underdeveloped" for, what, 8 years now?

If you don't need to use WHM's "supposed" complexity for current content, then what's the problem of adding to that complexity?

Because the complexity is already there? We just need encounters that flex that.

But they are though?

If we define "well designed" as "needs 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps, and all of them need to be playing well", then a solo healed Ultimate and all Tank clears of P1S would, indeed, imply that the encounters are poorly designed, yes. How else would you interpret that?

[Sebazy]

1) No, it isn't - these folks already disagree with me only on the basis I think healing is enjoyable right now.

Yes, it, is.

You then proceed to make exactly the same kind of BS exaggeration claim again. You're effectively having the forum equivalent of a tantrum like a small child, it looks sad and it makes it really hard to actually try and focus in on the actual decent and relevant points you're making elsewhere in your posts.

2) Further, that's the actual argument people are making in this thread - that one group of HIGHLY SKILLED PLAYERS WITH PERFECT RNG were able to do this means that healing IN THE ENTIRE GAME, INCLUDING ULTIMATE is broken.

Please just stop with this, you're doing yourself a disservice and again, It's just making people want to argue with you on principle. I don't know how I can make this any clearer. This is a complete BS exaggeration as pretty much everyone in this thread arguing with you has openly stated that there are plenty of occasions in the game where healing is actually good fun, leveling dungeons being the immediate and obvious answer.

Enough with the tantrum posting already.

OBJECTION: Straw man fallacy.

This solo Ultimate clearing AST did not use only one button.

......what?

Since when is DSR a dungeon or casual raid?

With that I'm done, I honestly couldn't care less about how relevant, accurate or interesting the rest of your post is because I can't be bothered if you're just going to come out with stupid stuff like this.

Have fun getting flamed sir.

[Renathras]

Yes, it, is.

NO.

It's not.

Because I was getting these same types of replies before.

You then proceed to make exactly the same kind of BS exaggeration claim again. You're effectively having the forum equivalent of a tantrum like a small child, it looks sad and it makes it really hard to actually try and focus in on the actual decent and relevant points you're making elsewhere in your posts.

People already weren't focusing on actual relevant points I was making. See above statement.

Also: ...you know what?
Never mind.

I'm done.

Have a good day and farewell.

EDIT:

Have fun getting flamed sir.

And you say I'm throwing a forum tantrum.

Yeah, I...take it back.

Anyway, farewell.

[IllyaPrisma]

And you say I'm throwing a forum tantrum.

You absolutely are. You came to my post, bring up some completely irrelevant and arbitrary comparison between WHM and WAR, then proceed with multiple walls of texts arguing with people who disagree with you. Thank you for derailing the entire thread.

[Renathras]

You absolutely are. You came to my post, bring up some completely irrelevant and arbitrary comparison between WHM and WAR, then proceed with multiple walls of texts arguing with people who disagree with you. Thank you for derailing the entire thread.

I'm going to reply one last time (been avoiding this place for days, thought I'd come have one last look...yeah, no)

You posted a thread and presented a topic. Part of your topic was "Imagine if..." and I noted that that's already not far from reality AND I wouldn't at all mind it if they did that.

That was ALL that I was trying to say in my initial point. Then it went into tangents because people can't accept someone that simply has a position that is "a few extra buttons but a largely static thing that's mostly the same in overall execution are not that different". But god forbid someone not actually agree with you folks...

EDIT:

Jesus christ no one is going to be convinced by spamming walls of misinformed BS ad nauseam. I am honestly amazed anyone still bothers to even skim through with enough attention to respond.

People have objectively disproven your nonsense claims about the healer role a hundred times now, including by posting logs of your own runs. At this point you are like a flat earther complaining everyone calling you out is evidence of an "echo chamber".

None of what I sad was "misinformed BS". I actually talked about the number of abilities, their function, and the complexity of the overall kits. And no, no one disproved my VALID AND RATIONAL claims by posting my own logs. Someone took a small segment of my log, ignored anything that disagreed with their claim, and tried some weird shaming that's honestly reportable/banable, I just don't care to pursue someone over such nonsense. At this point, posts like yours are borderline harassment.

Or maybe.....

it's because "current healers have fun engaging gameplay" is an incredibly easy position to argue against, and a lot of people who hang out here have no shortage of experience doing so. We've got game design principles, logs, game footage of bored healers snoozing through their 1111111111111 casts during content. We've heard it all before, and the deeper we look into how healers function in this game, MAN are they aggressively unfun.

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

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Farewell.

[Rolder50]

I love it when people post that healers are fine as they are, then you go look at their achievements on the Lodestone, and see they have never cleared Savage. Seems to happen far too often.

[Sebazy]

I love it when people post that healers are fine as they are, then you go look at their achievements on the Lodestone, and see they have never cleared Savage. Seems to happen far too often.

There's pretty good reason for this IMO.

Healing genuinely is much more enjoyable when you're playing sub optimally, this is reflected throughout the game. New leveling dungeons are fun, learning savage is fun, learning extremes is a blast, even early MSQ battles can be enjoyable. Even Aglaia was fun the first time through, now I'm at the point where I just want to alt f4 if people wipe us to Nald'thal.

It's an illusion that falls apart once you start trying to up your game, learning how little of your kit you can get away with using and then come crashing into the horrible realisation that all you've gotten for your efforts is the joys of pressing a single button some 100+ times.

Healing in this game is genuinely and legitimately a better experience when you are playing to a lower standard and/or don't understand the content. I'm not saying that to bash anyone, it's just how it is. It's like driving with horse blinkers on, you've got less awareness so things feel tighter, faster and more hectic than they actually are.

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

What isn't a subjective position is the simple fact that healer engagement has continually regressed from HW onwards.

[Semirhage]

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

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Farewell.

What if I told you...

if they actually designed the healer kits well, nothing's stopping you from spamming Glare and Medica a gazillion times and having "fun" while the rest of us play a game that isn't Cookie Clicker. Just like nothing's stopping Paladin mains from spamming Fast Blade over and over again if they don't want to touch the rest of their rotation.

[Liam_Harper]

What if I told you...

if they actually designed the healer kits well, nothing's stopping you from spamming Glare and Medica a gazillion times and having "fun" while the rest of us play a game that isn't Cookie Clicker. Just like nothing's stopping Paladin mains from spamming Fast Blade over and over again if they don't want to touch the rest of their rotation.

I think the biggest problem is that while Sylphies say they just want to play their way, play for fun and aren't evil elitist tryhards ...they actually do care about their performance in a way. They read these posts and don't like that thought at the back of their mind that they're actually perceived as playing badly. They resent it.

However, Sylphies also don't want to put effort in. So instead of learning their job and becoming a better player, they literally want the entire role to be destroyed and simplified to the point where spamming 1 button and Medica II is seen as optimal. Then in their bubble they can imagine they're perceived as a good player without changing their zero effort playstyle.

The Devs cater to this and protect it. Simplification is done so the bad player can feel like a good one, without being asked to play their job well. Even the anti-parser policy plays into this, shielding the bad player from potential proof that they're even playing the simple version badly and making it so other party members have nothing to gauge them on other than "is my health bar full?".

Healer is basically the role SE has assigned to bad players who can't even handle dps, as an easy mode option to carry them through content while making them feel like a piece of the team. Which is why when we come along with logic, threatening to burst that imaginary bubble and asking for change, they aggressively defend that "simple" playstyle at all costs and will go through every hoop possible to cling to it. They don't want to just be the Glare and Medica II spammer in the corner while we get new buttons and master them. They'd rather everyone was forced to be a Glare and Medica II spammer too and dragged down to their level to keep it equal. It's not healthy and it's incredibly poor design to cater to it.

[IllyaPrisma]

I'm going to reply one last time (been avoiding this place for days, thought I'd come have one last look...yeah, no)

You posted a thread and presented a topic. Part of your topic was "Imagine if..." and I noted that that's already not far from reality AND I wouldn't at all mind it if they did that.

"Not far from reality". You have not, IN THE SLIGHTEST made a convincing argument that Warrior is close to White Mage in terms of damage rotation. Damage rotation for healers (or lack there of) is what the initial post was about, highlighting the double standard issue currently ruining the healer role. You come in and say "wElL wArRiOr dOesN'T hAvE mUcH oF A dAmaGe rOtaTioN eItHeR aNd wArRior iS nOt fAr oFf fRoM wHiTe mAge".

1. Off topic.
2. People are going to disagree with your statement because it is untrue. Warrior has a decent damage rotation, and it is much better off than any of the Healers.
3. The comparison you are making is meaningless, choosing to compare a healing kit vs damage rotation.
4. How about you compare the complexity of White Mage's damage rotation vs Warrior's damage rotation?