Just remove healers.

[Nadda]

A compromise being you could just give Healers more DPS buttons? As a White Mage I'd surely appreciate it.
This idea you don't need healers is just nonsense and arrogant ignorance. Why do you need Tanks? Why not just have DPS have more mitigation. lol

At that point why play x flavor of DPS class when you could play ... "The Best DPS" class ™️ (so basically Samurai) Anything else would be garbage right?

You wanna play that game? With this GCD? 2 seconds of pure molasses-slow gameplay.

The game is a dance. If you do the dance right you take less damage. Yet people fail at that all the time, people slip up on mitigation on big pulls, and people fail DPS checks.

We don't live in a perfect world.

My point is, sometimes stuff happens, someone has to deal with it and who are you gonna call?

[Rolder50]

This idea you don't need healers is just nonsense and arrogant ignorance.

Are you sure about that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gi05HqdMSs - Ultimate Coil done with 8 tanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDxjXMMWgU - E4S (when current) done with 2 tanks and 6 dps

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh EX1 (Spoilers EW) done with 2 tanks 6 dps

The idea you don't need healers doesn't seem that nonsensical...

[ThorneDynasty]

This idea you don't need healers is just nonsense and arrogant ignorance

It's really not. You already barely need any heals on the tanks outside of big pulls and high-end content. You could slightly tune the damage and self-healing to make healers completely redundant for tanks. And give just a handful of DPS jobs a decent 60s cooldown healing ability and the only players who die to unavoidable damage are the ones eating avoidables too, with some leeway depending if they bother to put Second Wind on their hotbar.

Why do you need Tanks? Why not just have DPS have more mitigation. lol

Tanks actually have innate defense that makes them necessary. Tank privilege is a very real thing and you regularly see tanks just shrug off hits at +4 vuln stack that would absolutely KO a DPS not at full health. DPS will die in 12 seconds just to auto-attacks in unsynced raids. You'd need to go into full on encounter re-design to make tanks redundant, where for healers it's really just about giving DPS one more ability. Hell, they've already had to nerf Reapers' party heal already because just one DPS having a single decent heal was making actual healers pointless.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Healers being "redundant or "useless" depends on the party. I won't claim whether its,good or bad design but as someone else stated there will always be someone messing up somewhere. If you feel you want to play the game without healers I say go for it. Most other players will opt to keep em in their groups as per design.

You give healers more dps option they just become green dps (in which id imagine the next point will be "why not just play a dps"). They nerf tank survivability you end up with upset tank mains.
Idk, I don't see a clear cut path

[Hazama999]

Healing really does feel like a formality at this point, huh... Like you just have to have the role "because MMO." It's a real shame. I started as a CNJ in 2.0 and just seeing the role become so insipid and bland over the years really sucks

To anyone who could answer this, I ask out of curiosity: how fare the healers over on the JP side of things? Do they have the same or similar grievances? Or are they content with the way things are now?

[Lihtleita]

"well timmy you have weak little legs, instead of putting you on the protein we're just going to amputate"

[WaxSw]

Most other players will opt to keep em in their groups as per design

I'm willing to bet this is just because the game forces you to have healers via matchmaking and you can only go into non-standard healer runs with a full premade which not every player has access to most of the time, same with high end duty, outside of prog the main reason why 2 healers are brought instead of just 1 or none at all is either healer targeted mechanics (so 1 healer less would make that much more inconsistent) and ironically fflogs as 1/0 healers are deemed non-standard

You give healers more dps option they just become green dps (in which id imagine the next point will be "why not just play a dps")

We ARE already green dps, our GCDs are over 90% of the time used for that goal and our total healing casts barely reach 40% of our total actions, the only real difference that an actual rotation would make is that instead of pressing the same button 144 times that count could be reduced to 70 and the remaining 74 casts used in more interesting and fun options

[IkaraGreydancer]

I'm willing to bet this is just because the game forces you to have healers via matchmaking and you can only go into non-standard healer runs with a full premade which not every player has access to most of the time, same with high end duty, outside of prog the main reason why 2 healers are brought instead of just 1 or none at all is either healer targeted mechanics (so 1 healer less would make that much more inconsistent) and ironically fflogs as 1/0 healers are deemed non-standard





We ARE already green dps, our GCDs are over 90% of the time used for that goal and our total healing casts barely reach 40% of our total actions, the only real difference that an actual rotation would make is that instead of pressing the same button 144 times that count could be reduced to 70 and the remaining 74 casts used in more interesting and fun options

I can only go by what I see in game. Even in pf folks still bring healers to most content. That that'll vary by server but again that's what I see.

And my point is doing that would only make it feel even more like they're just green dps. You don't double down on that issue, cause if you do then the complaints of healers not being healers really surfaces. Just saying I personally don't see a clear cut way to do this right that'd satisfy the most people

[Nadda]

Are you sure about that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gi05HqdMSs - Ultimate Coil done with 8 tanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDxjXMMWgU - E4S (when current) done with 2 tanks and 6 dps

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh EX1 (Spoilers EW) done with 2 tanks 6 dps

The idea you don't need healers doesn't seem that nonsensical...

You're both trying to make the exception the rule. This is a fallacy.
I wish I could play with those groups shown honestly such dedication is rare. I commend their efforts. How many attempts I wonder.
Do you believe the feats they pulled to be easy? Or without the reasonable effort of precise teamwork?
Most of you are not as good as you think you are to coordinate such a feat let alone attempting it in every encounter, That's why it is nonsense.
Observe the very specific class stacking occurring? You don't just bring any ho-hum DPS job you want on board but the ones with the most utility.

You'll have to excuse my obtuse point of saying remove Tanks as you are so inclined. @ThorneDynasty However, as our friend, Rolder just showed content can be attempted likewise with just tanks so perhaps my example was misguided.

Look I understand the appeal of giving DPS one additional healing cool down for accidents, but the whole philosophy of a Player who chooses to heal is to take the DPS loss so that you can DPS more. I won't even bring up the futility of trying to remove White Mage from a Final Fantasy game of all things. I've seen MMOs go the path where you can build your own character with whatever skills you want... The gameplay of MMOs always gravitates back to the trinity. I've also seen what happens to classes when you give too much overlap. I've actually spoken with professionals in the field who have done class design. I can bring forth any questions you want to people I know for good measure to see what they think. They'd most likely give you similar answers.

You should redirect your efforts twofold. Ask for more dps options for healers as I had previously stated and to have bosses do more outgoing damage with more punishing mechanics.

If not accept the reality that what you are asking for is hegemonized class stacking where only people who play the "right job" get to do content and everything else may as well not exist.

[WaxSw]

I can only go by what I see in game. Even in pf folks still bring healers to most content. That that'll vary by server but again that's what I see.

And my point is doing that would only make it feel even more like they're just green dps. You don't double down on that issue, cause if you do then the complaints of healers not being healers really surfaces. Just saying I personally don't see a clear cut way to do this right that'd satisfy the most people

The thing is, Whys is giving healers a more dps feel an issue? We already spend time spamming 1 button by the hundreds, giving us more options would be if anything benefitial as it would give the more dedicated players a less boring job and those who want to keep spamming the 1 button would still be able to do it, it just woudnt be the skill ceiling of the job

You're both trying to make the exception the rule. This is a fallacy.
I wish I could play with those groups shown honestly such dedication is rare. I commend their efforts. How many attempts I wonder.
Do you believe the feats they pulled to be easy? Or without the reasonable effort of precise teamwork?

Do you believe is easy? 1 healer runs are, as a matter of fact the most common 1 healer duties tend to be extremes, P1s and P2s:

The extremes have a HPS requirement at the 80th percentile (far above the average healing) of 8k for EX1, 10k for EX2 and 12k for EX3 while the first two savage floors at the same percentile require a healing of 10k for P1s and 12k for P2... A sage with a moderate use of its GCD and oGCD kit can easily reach above 13k so even in those runs which are in the top 20% of HPS a single healer could cover that same hps, this also leaves out how with 1 extra dps there is more dps in the group which leads to mechanics being skipped which can result in simpler runs. Its not hard to do and do not require that much effort.

You should redirect your efforts twofold. Ask for more dps options for healers as I had previously stated and to have bosses do more outgoing damage with more punishing mechanics.

If not accept the reality that what you are asking for is hegemonized class stacking where only people who play the "right job" get to do content and everything else may as well not exist.

The thing about increasing the game damage and dps options is... The devs already denied us the increasing in damage so thats why we're so fervent in asking for more damage options, because its the only other place we can go to solve this issue and the one that woudnt require a complete game redesign.

I fail to see how more damaging options would lead to a stricter meta, it would make the act of balancing more complicated but as long as one job is not straight up garbage it would still be played and even if it is it could have its following, look at 6.0 WHM as example which was objectively the worst healer at literally everything and the most played at the same time.