Just remove healers.

[Nadda]

Are you sure about that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gi05HqdMSs - Ultimate Coil done with 8 tanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDxjXMMWgU - E4S (when current) done with 2 tanks and 6 dps

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh EX1 (Spoilers EW) done with 2 tanks 6 dps

The idea you don't need healers doesn't seem that nonsensical...

You're both trying to make the exception the rule. This is a fallacy.
I wish I could play with those groups shown honestly such dedication is rare. I commend their efforts. How many attempts I wonder.
Do you believe the feats they pulled to be easy? Or without the reasonable effort of precise teamwork?
Most of you are not as good as you think you are to coordinate such a feat let alone attempting it in every encounter, That's why it is nonsense.
Observe the very specific class stacking occurring? You don't just bring any ho-hum DPS job you want on board but the ones with the most utility.

You'll have to excuse my obtuse point of saying remove Tanks as you are so inclined. @ThorneDynasty However, as our friend, Rolder just showed content can be attempted likewise with just tanks so perhaps my example was misguided.

Look I understand the appeal of giving DPS one additional healing cool down for accidents, but the whole philosophy of a Player who chooses to heal is to take the DPS loss so that you can DPS more. I won't even bring up the futility of trying to remove White Mage from a Final Fantasy game of all things. I've seen MMOs go the path where you can build your own character with whatever skills you want... The gameplay of MMOs always gravitates back to the trinity. I've also seen what happens to classes when you give too much overlap. I've actually spoken with professionals in the field who have done class design. I can bring forth any questions you want to people I know for good measure to see what they think. They'd most likely give you similar answers.

You should redirect your efforts twofold. Ask for more dps options for healers as I had previously stated and to have bosses do more outgoing damage with more punishing mechanics.

If not accept the reality that what you are asking for is hegemonized class stacking where only people who play the "right job" get to do content and everything else may as well not exist.

[WaxSw]

I can only go by what I see in game. Even in pf folks still bring healers to most content. That that'll vary by server but again that's what I see.

And my point is doing that would only make it feel even more like they're just green dps. You don't double down on that issue, cause if you do then the complaints of healers not being healers really surfaces. Just saying I personally don't see a clear cut way to do this right that'd satisfy the most people

The thing is, Whys is giving healers a more dps feel an issue? We already spend time spamming 1 button by the hundreds, giving us more options would be if anything benefitial as it would give the more dedicated players a less boring job and those who want to keep spamming the 1 button would still be able to do it, it just woudnt be the skill ceiling of the job

You're both trying to make the exception the rule. This is a fallacy.
I wish I could play with those groups shown honestly such dedication is rare. I commend their efforts. How many attempts I wonder.
Do you believe the feats they pulled to be easy? Or without the reasonable effort of precise teamwork?

Do you believe is easy? 1 healer runs are, as a matter of fact the most common 1 healer duties tend to be extremes, P1s and P2s:

The extremes have a HPS requirement at the 80th percentile (far above the average healing) of 8k for EX1, 10k for EX2 and 12k for EX3 while the first two savage floors at the same percentile require a healing of 10k for P1s and 12k for P2... A sage with a moderate use of its GCD and oGCD kit can easily reach above 13k so even in those runs which are in the top 20% of HPS a single healer could cover that same hps, this also leaves out how with 1 extra dps there is more dps in the group which leads to mechanics being skipped which can result in simpler runs. Its not hard to do and do not require that much effort.

You should redirect your efforts twofold. Ask for more dps options for healers as I had previously stated and to have bosses do more outgoing damage with more punishing mechanics.

If not accept the reality that what you are asking for is hegemonized class stacking where only people who play the "right job" get to do content and everything else may as well not exist.

The thing about increasing the game damage and dps options is... The devs already denied us the increasing in damage so thats why we're so fervent in asking for more damage options, because its the only other place we can go to solve this issue and the one that woudnt require a complete game redesign.

I fail to see how more damaging options would lead to a stricter meta, it would make the act of balancing more complicated but as long as one job is not straight up garbage it would still be played and even if it is it could have its following, look at 6.0 WHM as example which was objectively the worst healer at literally everything and the most played at the same time.

[Nadda]

I believe we're on the same page in terms of giving healers more DPS options. Apologies for the confusion.

My point was looking at those healer free runs they all required a specific stacking of classes which isn't intended design to bypass healings necessity for most. This is a bit different than 1 Healer runs for trials and raids since why not! Perhaps a middle difficulty is in order to necessitate 2 healers, but I digress.

I'm talking specifically.
EX1 2 Reapers 4 Dancers in one. (why exactly this)
E4S 1 Dancer 5 Summoners another. (why exactly that?)
In both cases a tanking core of 1 Paladin and 1 Warrior both with the most sustainablity.

There are ways to optimize a run so that you can bypass mechanics. But these are exceptions. Exceptions being the rule is a Fallacy. I must reaffirm.

What others are arguing is that this should be the future of the game if you are to remove Healers. This is what you will have class stacking. Hegemonization. If you give people enough time they will optimize the fun out of anything. Soon the social expectation will become "well why aren't you playing x job, when y job they do more damage, or they give off this buff.. or with this comp we can complete this content 2 minutes faster. It will be ... Easier. I'm not inviting them they don't play x job, they don't have a high enough parse to..."

Sacraficing gameplay and bonds for convienence.

Reminds me of World of Warcraft and I would not suffer it here. It is a dead end.

[Icecylee]

What others are arguing is that this should be the future of the game if you are to remove Healers. This is what you will have class stacking.

Right, you wouldn't just outright remove healers without doing anything else. You'd give everyone a self heal, and maybe expand a tiny bit on the other heals that are already present on other classes or beef up tank sharable cooldowns slightly, which would *open* up what's possibly without having a dedicated healer, not constrict it.


That said, I suppose the one good thing about this thread lasting so long is that instead of getting a ton of pushback and 'no healing is perfect as is dont change anything, i love standing around picking my nose and casting one spell every twenty seconds' we're instead getting "compromises" saying what we really need is... the stuff people have been asking for for literal years, so, incremental progress there I guess! Now we just need the devs to start paying attention...