SAM players are quitting

[CelestiCer]

You have enough general play experience to look at a skill, how it's intended to be used, and make an assumption on it.
This is because the difference between the various jobs are not so steep that it prevents experience from one can quite easily translate to another.

Then you also know that by reading skills purely alone, it doesn't do justice as to what you can or cannot do in every single given situation on every single job in every single fight.

While jobs might not vary in steepness, I don't see the logic in advocating making it even more stale by removing any ounce of depth that many hold dear. The benefits or the enjoyment loss you suffer? from Kaiten Removal is so "Non-Existing", that defending it's removal? means so little, what is the argument point at that point for us not having it back when it means so much to Samurai mains.

This... notion of " Choice-less " to invalidate Kenki-management? The only way I can understand this if players view FFXIV's job rotations to be pre-destined, played like a perfectly scripted accordion for every fight. You cast Kaiten exactly at x time at x fight at x situation regardless of what happens? I mean I guess? but at that point doesn't that invalidate every bar, every gauge, every resource and even every cast anyone casts? If players perfectly adhere to a scripted list of skills they cast? <- Cause this is about the only way I can see that argument of there being no management of practically anything, then I agree yes.

But not everyone casts everything the same, not everyone performs the same... and that makes Kenki or any resource from any job fluctuate -> creating " Choice ". That choice to press different buttons that costs kenki? yes that's your choice to " Manage ". To knowingly cast Gekko and Kasha to generate enough for Kaiten + Midare and not trigger finger the Kenki away with Shinten yes that's a choice. To cast Kaiten and Ogi Namikiri and knowing you have enough cast time to do it as you move out of harms way or knowing you don't to delay it and not overcap your Kenki and use Shinten to manage it, that's a choice.

I don't even feel like I need to explain this... I genuinely believe I don't, not with you... but with plenty apparently I do... cause the only meme argument point they have is to invalidate all of these experiences that has become muscle memory for plenty of us into just " It's a button you press everytime "

[Kabooa]

Then you also know that by reading skills purely alone, it doesn't do justice as to what you can or cannot do in every single given situation on every single job in every single fight.

Yes. I know this because I play a variety of jobs in end game content, but I have time limits and energy constraints, let alone desires to play games other than FF14. Most of the examples you provide have less to do with Kaiten, isntead centered on whether or not you're using Iaijutsu, in which case, the use of Kaiten is a foregone conclusion.

Do you understand why that is different?

There is a valid argument for Sword Draw against a standard GCD for safety vs calculation. <=== This is the choice.

If you chose Sword Draw, you're using Kaiten. <==== This is not a choice.

It's also important to note I am not saying it's easy doing it. I am not diminishing your accomplishments. Imagine a Machinist telling someone else their job is easy. I also don't think I'd paint myself as an advocate for its removal. I'm very much against removing things without receiving anything for them, but I also think it's important to look at what the absence reveals to us, and use that to direct what we should ask for.

To me, the removal of Kaiten confirmed what Tsubame Gaeshi started for me, in that Samurai is actually uninteresting in its current path. Kaiten coming back will not change that for me.

But hey, you're right. I'm far less affected than others. So for what it's worth, I hope you can look forward to 6.2 for its potential return. Just beware that I doubt you'll get it back in its original form.

A whole lotta good stuff

See, it's people like you that keep me coming back here.

This whole wall is full of good stuff, and my only regret is that it'll soon be buried.

[CelestiCer]

Most of the examples you provide have less to do with Kaiten, isntead centered on whether or not you're using Iaijutsu, in which case, the use of Kaiten is a foregone conclusion.

Do you understand why that is different?.

It means at the end of the day its still " Decision Making ".

The only time it's not? is when we're not humans and perfect robots without free will -> playing perfectly to a pre-scripted timeline of skills casted at exactly x time and x situations. We for better or worse we aren't perfect, we make errors through our Decision Making.

I personally don't use it, but through " XIVAnalysis", it shows Samurai's " Missed Kaiten Casts ". By applying your logic and that of many others who preach " No Choice, since you cast it before every Iaijutsu... " it doesn't exactly explain why many Samurai's miss-execute not casting Kaiten does it? So why? by your logic that is.

• Forgot Kaiten? nope we had " -> No Choice "
• Fat fingered Shinten? nope we had -> " No Choice "
• Miss Managed Kenki? nope we had -> " No Choice "
• Mistake? I thought we had -> " No Choice "

Remember your logic was " No Choice " we had no decision other then casting Kaiten right before every Iaijutsu... Lets forget you missed mentioning casting Kaiten before every Ogi Namikiri that wasn't even your " Choice " to do so... cause " No Choices " correct? see the flaw in the logic?

The Answer = Choice, we did had the Decision Making, and still end up miss casting Kaiten. The reward and the joy is doing this perfectly, the punishment is missing or messing this up. You're right, it is difficult to perfectly do this 24/7 on every fight and every situation. Was it rocket science? no. But it was very enjoying to try and keep doing it perfectly. And ultimately still the Samurai users " Choice " to do so.

To me, the removal of Kaiten confirmed what Tsubame Gaeshi started for me, in that Samurai is actually uninteresting in its current path. Kaiten coming back will not change that for me.

Here we differ in opinion. Kaiten removal just showed that Kenki Management to many of us it had depth no matter how shallow others try to convince us it was of which many who don't even play our job voiced that opinion. There's a reason why there's an uproar for this.

And I do hope to see it return and if not? With something of equal or more depth or satisfaction to cast in its place. Though replacing Kaiten? is a tall task.

[ShanaShirayuki]

To me, the removal of Kaiten confirmed what Tsubame Gaeshi started for me, in that Samurai is actually uninteresting in its current path. Kaiten coming back will not change that for me.

For many of us, the crux of the matter is that if SAM and Crit as a whole were going to be reworked in future expansions, why now and not then? Why right before new endgame content where SAM players and their statics spent months preparing for? Why only one class and not others? I will echo what others have mentioned and say that I'd be less upset over these changes if they were slated to be a part of an overhaul in say 7.0. The changes were rushed; one can see this with the recent 'buffs' SAM received in 6.11. They were to combat the meme rotation in Yukikaze > Hagakure > Shinten spam doing similar numbers to the devs' projected numbers in 6.1.

Due to the 6.1 'fixes', SAM has lost synergy with 4 classes that augment Crit rate. Their DPS suffers if a SAM is brought along in a composition. Not to mention, Shinten spamming with awkward pauses in the opener / rotation is not my idea of fun. There was a reason Hagakure was restored, albeit in a nerfed form; that reason was to discourage the dull SB playstyle that was brought back with 6.1.

Tldr; if their intention was to dig themselves out of the Kaiten / Tsubame Gaeshi loop, they should've done it in a new expansion, and not shoehorned right before new raid content.

[Kabooa]

Tldr; if their intention was to dig themselves out of the Kaiten / Tsubame Gaeshi loop, they should've done it in a new expansion, and not shoehorned right before new raid content.

We can guess for their motives - I certainly wouldn't put my realization in line with them. They design the game for a player that differs greatly from me.

There's a good post in another thread regarding potential motives, if you're interested you can check their thoughts here.

And frankly regarding the timing, it is probably something that they could have waited until the next expansion to address fully and completely. It's not like they haven't left other things to sit around until a similar if not greater amount of time has passed.

[FrogBiscuit]

I don't even feel like I need to explain this... I genuinely believe I don't, not with you... but with plenty apparently I do... cause the only meme argument point they have is to invalidate all of these experiences that has become muscle memory for plenty of us into just " It's a button you press everytime "

I admit I am losing steam on this part. The obtuse, overly simplistic arguments that all effectively boil down to 'It wasn't that important and you were just going to press the button regardless, why do you need it, why do you care?', have been repeated ad nauseam and despite seemingly being ignored every single time, responded to in detail (to a point that begs the simple nature of the situation) over and over.

The argument always stems from some perspective of play style perfection (entirely unrealistic) and like the little variance between the classes is already gone (simply not true and homogenization is something every player should be against) so effectively any complaint against this design direction is dismissed by the fly by elitists as: 'give it up, you already lost'.



Considering the entire topic, in every 6.1 SAM thread is specifically in reference to the subjective feel of how the class played... Its really pretty uninspired how many introverts need to convince others that their opinion about how they feel about a game they play is 'wrong'. Not to even mention the overwhelming number of SAM players that actually share this same subjective negative feeling/opinion about the 6.1 change. Seems overly silly and childish that these select few handful of contrarians have a driving need to prove the vast majority of the SAM player base incorrect in how they feel about the class they play.

At this point, I am fine with them being settled in their overly simple perspective of the game and their confusion as to why some players might actually voice their opinions.

I'll take the topic bump and will continue to discuss it with those who are actually aware of the class situation and actually have purpose here, rather then those simply interjecting themselves desperately just trying to draw attention to themselves by talking down to others about a subject they have little investment in in the first place.


Maybe they'll just get bored eventually and go harass other people... Or maybe with enough time, it'll finally dawn on them that no one really has any ground to tell another person how 'someone feels about a class's game design' is wrong, isn't the part of the topic that is up for debate or even can be debated in the first place. Its a subjectively situational impression every individual person has and its mind boggling there are people still thoughtless enough to think that a personal perspective can be disqualified and be labeled as 'wrong'.

Maybe wishful thinking... I know. But oh well... Hey, SAM threads are still active and its not like the opposition has stated anything of merit (considering they are comically arguing against others peoples personal enjoyment of something).

[Alex1337]

Nail on head.